fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #6413 ]

[ SECRET POST #6413 ]

⌈ Secret Post #6413 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 47 secrets from Secret Submission Post #917.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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This is such a bizarre take. You need characters to be just like you in order to not be put off by them? One of the major points of fiction, whether fanfic or otherwise, is to experience the unfamiliar, and to empathize with people who are not like us.

If someone decides to write one of my favorite characters as an avid attender of metal concerts, or a rock climber, or a collector of beanie babies, when they are never established as doing those things in canon, then it's going to be jarring. And it's going to be all the more jarring, and potentially off-putting, if the reader themselves has negative feelings and associations with death metal, rock climbing, or beanie babies.

This is not that complicated. The fact that you're jumping straight from, "I don't like to imagine my faves doing thing because I myself have only negative associations with thing," and running all the way to "You need other people to be JuSt LiKe YoU in order to not be put off by them," is such a leap it's wild. Is reading comprehension on the fritz in this thread today or something?

Oh come on. Showing a character casually enjoying a soft recreational drug, like alcohol or nicotine or coffee or cannabis, something that is very normal for most adults in many of the cultures portrayed in media, is not the same as making them an avid fan of a hobby that never comes up in canon.

Nobody is "jumping straight from" anything you didn't say yourself by stating you were "alienated" by someone pulling out a joint "because fanfic involves a high level of identifying/relating to the characters", i.e., that you are then unable to do that because you personally don't like it.

Your words aren't being twisted.

Nayrt but yeah, they really are being twisted.

The problem here seems to be with the way you and a couple other anon's here understand identifying with a character vs. What it means to me, op, and other anon(s) here.

I, and likely op, identify with (i.e. feel emotionally connected to and experience the story vicariously through) tons of characters who are nothing like us in so many ways. But if something is a squick for us, we dont want to read about our favorite character, whom we are essentially sitting in as we experience the narrative, engaging with that thing that squicks us in a way that is overtly positive. Because it's unenjoyable and disruptive to the enjoyment and immersion in the story - as squicks are.

I don't think op thought there would be anything controversial about their comment (nor would I think there was). Experiencing a story through vicarious identification with the main character(s) is extremely common; arguably standard. Not wanting to engage with known squick is extremely common, and engaging with a known squick when the character we are vicariously experiencing the story through actively enjoys the squick tends to make the whole thing more acutely unenjoyable.

I dont think the OP used the word squick specifically, even though it seems clear that's what pot is to them, so maybe that's where the confusion is coming from. Otherwise I have to idea. What they said made total sense to me and I didn't get any of what you seem to be interpreting from it at all.

If it's actually a squick for them then they should have just said that instead of using language that comes across as sanctimoniously judgmental. "I roll my eyes and back button out" sounds like you're judging people for writing that particular thing.

OP here! I did not say that thing you quoted me saying, or anything like it. I thought that "I have never had any positive experiences with weed, only negative ones" was pretty damn clear, but I guess not. And nothing in my comment was judgmental or sanctimonious; you are reading so much into tone here, and none of it is correct.

Do you live in a place where people are hella judgy about weed? Because I opened my comment by divulging that I live in a place where weed is completely normalized. When I go out for a walk, I see more people toking than smoking. People tend to think you're a square if you don't ever toke, here. So no, I wasn't being sanctimonious or judgmental and it wouldn't even occur to me to be either of those things, because it's completely normal here. If you think you read any of that in my comment, you were mistaken.

"I did not say that thing you quoted me saying"

You literally did. It's right there on the secret. Do you need me to link it for you to remember what you wrote?

Jesus fucking christ. I'm the OP of the thread that y'all are piling onto like crazed weasles, not the OP of the fucking secret. Lord.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2024-07-29 01:56 (UTC) - Expand

THIS. you can really tell that some people itt view toking as like, a default behavior, because they're so triggered when someone DOESN'T like the characters (who dont ever toke in canon) to toke because they don't personally enjoy it, but they choose to write characters who dont ever toke in canon as toking, and somehow that's...not coming from a place of personal preference and relatability? Lol, K.

I don't enjoy toking at all. It's still not "alienating" or "jarring" to have a character toke, because fictional characters aren't me and don't have to enjoy exactly the same things I do to be relatable.

Why are you so insistent that ayrt and everyone else engage with fiction the exact same way you do? Seriously the only person here who is trying to argue that someone else is Doing Fanfic Wrong is you.

Looking at the thread, I'm not, objectively, the only one, but since you asked: as I said earlier in it, it's myopic and kind of sad. If fiction doesn't exist to broaden our experiences and allow us to relate to others, but rather only to engage with perspectives that are already comfortable to us and points of view from which we already agree, that's, like, really fucking sad, man.

I get it, and you're not a Bad Person for it - that one other anon has explained their view very well to me - but it's still it's really fucking sad.

Yeah, I feel like if that's your take on fiction (that you only want to read about characters who are just like you) then you're honestly missing the entire point of fiction in general.

Literally point to where any of the anons ITT have said that. I've read pretty much the whole thread (god help me), and there isn't a single comment that supports this reading.

Once more for the people in the back: Not wanting the character you are vicariously identified with, to engage with one specific topic that you find personally squicky, does not equal "I only want to read about characters that are just like me."

Hope that cleared some things up for you.

To add to what's already been said, not only is it sad, but it honestly also leads to worse fiction. When a majority of people need a text to keep them comfortable and reflect their own experiences and preferences back at them, then the incentive is to avoid producing fiction that steps outside of comfort zones, broadens horizons, or has anything remotely interesting to say.

+1000000

There's a couple people here who are being weirdly aggressive about...other people having things they don't like in fiction? The "identify" thing seems to have triggered them, but I don't fully understand how. I see a lot of comments where people seem determined to believe that "I don't want to engage with this one particular subject within the context of this fanfic about a character I feel very strongly connected to," automatically equates to, "I don't want to read about any character being different from me in any way ever."

No, no, nopity, no, nope. The leap from A to B on that is staggering, but by god, they're making it Evel Knievel style.

That's not what's prompting the disagreement. What's prompting the disagreement is anon's perspective on fiction more broadly.

People can certainly engage with fiction however they like. But when that engagement involved what appears to be an immature, self-centered view, then others are going to comment on it. I'm sure you wouldn't suggest that it's perfectly fine for men to reject all female main characters because they can't "relate" to them. An inability to handle characters doing or enjoying something that one does not do or enjoy themselves is a less extreme version of that exact same phenomenon.

You have utterly fabricated "my perspective on fiction more broadly." You have made it all up in your head based on things you inferred that I never said.

But this total misapprehension of what I expressed in my comment has been clarified a number of times already by me and others, and you still insist that the huge leaps of inaccurate assumption and inference about "my perspective on fiction," so I really dont think you're in any state to be dissuaded.

It's fine. I will continue to consume all manner of fiction, from the profound and challenging to the trifling and featherweight, as I have done for decades. I will also continue to vicariously identify with my faves in their vast array of complex and multifaceted glory - from the monstrous to the saintly, from the alien to the utmost mundane - and I will continue to have a sparse few specific things I find unappealing on every level, for my own reasons, as we all do, and those things will continue to be things I dont want to see my faves associated with IN FANFICTION FOR FUCKS SAKE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FAN FICTION HERE NOT BOOKER PRIZE NOMINEES THIS IS NOT A WAR FOR THE FUTURE OF MEDIA LITERACY ITS FUCKING BLORBOS AND FANFICTION FOR FUN ON THE INTERNET AFTER A THIRTEEN HOUR DAY AT WORK JESUS CHRIST...because. You dont need to understand why. It's none of your business why. Fucking because. Because I'm here to have a good time and that particular thing is not a good time to me, so nah, pass. BECAUSE.

I don't toke. Never have, never will. I couldn't care less if a character does it in fic because the character isn't me and their preferences aren't mine.

In fact, I can think of one character from one of my canons who I could absolutely see toking because it's canon that he both smokes and drinks recreationally. It wouldn't be even the slightest stretch for a fic author to say that he might also light up a joint from time to time.

Did your mom spend your child support payments on pot and then give you a bouncy ball for your birthday? Mine did. Did you end up in the hospital after doing it because your friends thought you were having a psychotic break, but actually no, weed just breaks your brain while you scramble through the collapsing thought-pathways like a terrified creature lost in a maze? Because that was my second time. (My first time was only half as horrifying; all my friends insisted it must've been laced with something and I should try it again.)

I have repeated many times ITT: none of my experiences with weed have been positive. It is a squick for me. I don't want to vicariously experience enjoying it through a character I feel a strong emotional connection to.

I didn't think I had to trot out my trauma with weed in order for people to comprehend the basic sentiment of "Weed's a bad time for me and I can't relate to enjoying it, so when a character I'm vicariously identified with just casually lights one up, I don't enjoy that either," but apparently we're still making people prove their credentials for this shit.

I'm sorry, op(?). I didnt find your intent or meaning unclear before or now. People were crazy determined to misunderstand you here for whatever reason. The asshattery was real. Peace.

When you link your dislike of encountering something in fiction to your ability to personally identify with it, yes, that comes across as you saying that you need characters to be like you in order to read about them.

Fanfic that's out of character is a totally different issue from fanfic that involves characters doing things that you personally don't like.

Being unable to identing with something is part of disliking it in fiction for most people though. Someone ITT mentions disliking reading about their faves having babies. I mention it because I also dislike plots where my faves have babies.

You think "I don't want this, can't relate to wanting this, and have no desire to make myself relate to wanting this" isn't a significant part of why a lot of people who don't like reading baby fics don't like reading baby fics?

I think the ONE part of this whole misunderstanding I will take responsibility for, is that perhaps I should have used the word "squick," because that's what weed is to me, it's a squick, and I should have been more explicit in saying that not only do I not relate to enjoying a nice casual toke with friends, but I don't want to relate to it. I have no interest in vicariously experiencing a nice casual toke with friends.

Surely, surely, that makes sense to you. Surely now it is clear.

I mean I think I'm done here either way, but it would be genuinely nice if I understood where the hell the miscommunication here is coming from, because I don't, I really don't.

If someone decides to write one of my favorite characters as an avid attender of metal concerts, or a rock climber, or a collector of beanie babies, when they are never established as doing those things in canon, then it's going to be jarring.

Why would it be jarring? Canon doesn't show every moment of a character's life. If a canon is about fighting space aliens and 90% of the canon screentime is dedicated to that, do you just assume that the characters don't have any hobbies that they do in their rare downtime or something?

It would be one thing if any of those things contradicted what we actually are shown in canon (e.g., saying a character is an avid attender of metal concerts when canon shows us that they dislike being around large groups of people, or that they're a rock climber when they have a canon fear of heights), but otherwise I don't understand what would be jarring about it.

NAYRT - I dunno man, I find that jarring as hell, too. It just makes the hand of the author way too evident, IMO. If it's important to the character, and a substantial aspect of their life, then yeah, it's gonna feel jarring if the character has never done it in canon and now suddenly it's a whole thing.

Why do you think fic writers give characters extraneous hobbies so rarely? It's almost always something they've been established as having an interest in in canon, or something that ties in directly to something they do in canon. Sometimes a character will start a new hobby in a fic and begin to develop it, but I rarely read competently written fics where the character just- has a hobby out of nowhere. Like oh yeah, that's my bird-watching gear. Gotta pop out for a new piping bag to finish icing that five-layer cake I'm making for so-and-so's birthday. I'm headed to barre class. that seems pretty jarring to me is all I'm saying.

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