fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1126 ]

[ SECRET POST #1126 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1126 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 078 secrets from Secret Submission Post #161.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

How the hell does complexity define strength?

Besides, I think someone who is capable of facing down creepy shadow child before anyone else even knew of his existence, let alone having to deal with him, shows an enormous strength of character. She is also someone who is prepared to die rather than let her best friend sell his own soul to bring her back from the dead. She's not just making a "valid lifestyle choice", as you rather condescendingly put it, to stand by her man - she's committing to values that she believes in, and following them through to whatever end they may bring her to. And, um, being someone's "convenient support" takes an enormous amount of strength.

So, in answer to your original two question: yes, and since always.

A "strong character" is a complex one. She may be a strong person AS a character, in the sense that she's solid, dependable, physically adept, etc etc. She even has a "strong character" in the sense that she has good values. But she is NOT a strong character, since I am according it a very specific definition, one that relates specifically to fiction: a strong character is one who is complicated, who has depth and is realistic as a person. A strong character is well written.

Riza, like many of the FMA characters actually, is not strong in this sense. She does not grow or change during the course of the story... she has always been the good, reliable person she is now. Nor is she especially conflicted about her choice in life... never does she doubt her decision to stand by Roy, nor (in the moment in the manga where Roy is about to go off the deep end and kill Envy) does she do anything other than what has been expected of her all along... she threatens him, just as he has always asked her to do, and is an integral part of having him remember his values and not kill Envy (although, tbh? I think he could have easily killed Envy and it would not have been a problem, since Envy has proven himself dangerous even when supposedly helpless... but that's neither here nor there).

You are misunderstanding me. She is a static character, and has far more good qualities than bad ones. In many ways, she is like a Mary Sue... perfectly positioned to be helpful, without any pesky needs or wants other than the one driving desire to support Roy. I don't care if you find my tone condescending, since it kind of is... I really don't get how people who love her cannot see that the story hasn't done her any kind of justice as a person. She is an archetype, and a particularly likable one, but she is not an individual. She is not given enough personality, interests, or exposure for that. The story is what betrays her, and makes her less than what she could be. She is poorly written.

I do like her. I would want to be friends with someone like that, and I'd trust a person like her with my life. BUT. She's not a strong character. Arakawa is good at plot, but not so great with her characterizations, and other than Ed, Roy, and a few other main characters, most of the secondary characters are tropes rather than well defined individuals. It's a shame Riza hasn't been written to be more than a badass... she would be a lot more interesting that way.

And to be fair. My favorite FMA character, Scar? In the manga, he's not an especially strong character either. But at least he has been given a true character arc, an ability to grow and change through the course of the story, even if it is a fairly predictable "redemption arc." What is Riza's character arc? How does she grow and change? Where does she experience doubts, where are we given a sense that she could have chosen something other than being Roy's support? I think it weakens her as a character not to show us these things, because then her sacrifices and determination would be a lot more impressive if we could be given the human rationale behind them. At this point, the only place where you'll see a Riza with any true depth is in fanfiction, written by her fans. I think this is sad.

To better understand my POV, please read this: Why Strong Female Characters Are Bad For Women. I'd put "strong" in quotes there, because I think that the author is using the term in a sarcastic sense, but if you read the article you will see what I mean without me having to explain it. I agree with this article in most of its major points.

(And, as an aside? You want a strong female character who is written well? You couldn't do better than Hitagi, the girl in my icon... and she is a "stand by her man" type making a "valid lifestyle choice," who clearly wants to be someone's "convenient support"... and you'll realize that I don't have contempt for these things at all, when they are written WELL.)

Edited 2010-02-05 02:22 (UTC)

/randomly dived in by essay love

I was going to ask "Have you watched Twelve Kingdoms" and then I saw your communities. *high five*

I personally saw Risai of Twelve Kingdoms (particularly in A Shore In Twilight) as a better-written, more complex "Riza"-like character.

I not only have watched The Twelve Kingdoms, I have read all of the novels currently available in translation (either in print or online). And omg do I agree with you about Risai. XD

omg I love you. ♥

Risai is pure win. She's love as every female character in The Twelve Kingdoms (even Jokaku and her sister. I felt for them in that drama audio ;;!).

What is Riza's character arc? How does she grow and change? Where does she experience doubts, where are we given a sense that she could have chosen something other than being Roy's support? I think it weakens her as a character not to show us these things, because then her sacrifices and determination would be a lot more impressive if we could be given the human rationale behind them.

I'm not that big of an FMA fan, but I would've thought that during the Ishbal war we saw a very weak Riza who seemed to, at least for a moment, doubt her actions to kill innocent lives. She may not have a full, complete character arc compared to others, but I just wanted to point out that Riza did have her moments of weakness.

She's the type who, in my opinion, doesn't really have much dreams of her own thus when she hears Roy's dream of a better world, it influences her and she supports him. In a sense, she became (for lack of a better word) stronger supporting a dream/Roy. You can see during the war she wasn't sure if she did the right thing, but she strengthened (why do I keep using that word? XD) her resolve and decided to cast her doubts aside and go forward, making her rather stoic and mary sue-ish in our eyes.

As you said, different people have different views of strength. I think we each have our own valid views of how "strong" Riza is, though I do not agree with your use of that article as I really do not see Riza as the girls used in the examples there. But to each their own. I totally agree that she could have been better written though...

I don't think

herongale is saying that Riza isn't a strong person. I think she's aware that Riza represents one type of strength - namely, the strength of resolve. She's saying (I think) that Riza is not a particularly well-written character (which you sort of agree with, I assume - or at least, you agree that she could've been better written).

Oh, no big. I get what she means but her argument (which I use in a good sense) is lacking another side of Riza which I wish to point out. No doubt Riza could've been written better... but using that article as reference as well as when she said Riza showed no weakness is what I'd like to counter argue about cause it's not quite true, that's all.

Like I said, to each their own. Certain people consider Riza as weak because she lacks valid weaknesses and is mary-sue-ish in their eyes. That's really up to them. But if you wish to argue about it, well... do expect some counter arguments. :) I mean no harm at all.

Oh, no. I'm slightly confused as to what exactly

herongale is talking about as well. (Hence my long lengthy post below basically asking: "WAIT, WHUT?")

I understand what you're saying. There are two types of strength at play, here. One is, as I said, the strength of resolve (which is displayed by most, if not all, of the protagonists in the FMA manga). The other is the strength of change and adaptation. You grow, you do something that you would not have done in the beginning. Maybe you break a few moral codes that you hold dear, but then the strength lies in moving on. (This is, ironically, the story of the FMA anime. Just goes to show you how different the two are.)

Yeah, I don't blame you for finding what

herongale said confusing. That's why I selected only a certain point of what she said to argue about, cause from what little I remember, Riza was not constantly shown as a person with no weaknesses and is thus, a weak character.

I find Riza a strong character in my own way, and it's for some of the reasons which you've mentioned. Some people consider her supporting Roy as weakness as it shows she can't stand on her own two feet, when I think she's strong for being clear with her resolve and doing the best she can for a dream which, I think, they both share. It's very selective, that's why I find some people's arguments against her to be really one sided. It's all their opinion, but if they wish to argue about it, at least do it right and not paint the wrong picture.

I am not using the word strong the same way you are, at least, not directed at the same thing.

Riza IS strong. This is her main defining characteristic.

But does that mean she is a strong CHARACTER? Meaning, is she written in a way that fleshes her strength out, gives it an individual meaning unique to her? I don't think so. She's more generically strong, and more generically stoic... just like her love of Roy is more generically faithful. I don't think there is anything wrong with the general outline of her actions, or her life choices, and there is definitely nothing wrong with the type of person she is. I just can't help but think that Arakawa sacrificed individuality (making Riza stand out as a unique person) in favour of relatability (writing her to be someone to whom readers can imprint their own motives and personalities).

Riza's blandness works in some ways: Arakawa is telling a plot driven story, and if the characters were too well fleshed out, then THEY might drive events in a way that takes the plot direction out of her control... if you've ever written a story where you let the characters be fully fleshed out, you know what I mean. Letting the characters be fully human can often confound and complicate a plot, and there is a great risk of the story being derailed. Arakawa prioritizes plot over characterization, and this is not always a wrong choice.

But for Riza, I see this as a failed choice, since I think Riza deserves to be more of a central player than she has been allowed to be. The story would have been stronger if her actions were not only shown, but better explained and explored. Who ROY is depends a lot on who she is, after all, since her decisions made a profound impact in his life... and being cheated of good explanations ends up detracting from Roy's characterization as well as her own. It also is really a shitty way to communicate an epic romance, which is what I think Arakawa wants us to see between them. They are obviously intended to be an example of canonical devotion and love, and yet it is so easy for a lot of fans to completely write her out of the equation because the manga doesn't properly emphasize her position in Roy's life, or her importance.

Honestly? The cynical part of me suspects that Arakawa underwrites her main female characters in order to increase marketability of the males.

One of the points that I continually encounter when people start talking about the manga and the characterization in the manga is that Arakawa is writing a plot-driven story, and thus, it is only natural that her characterization suffers.

First of all, that is such a wrong assumption that I don't quite know how to answer it. (And I mean this in the nicest way possible. Really! No offense meant,

herongale.) But characterization and plot are not inversely related. You can have a very epic plot (action, adventure, Byzantine politics, all that jazz) that is nonetheless very character-driven. I brought up this example way down in the thread: George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series. It is arguably more epic than the FMA manga, more complex, more everything - but at the same time, it is also very character-driven, about as character-driven as the first FMA anime, actually, if not more so.

It is difficult, yes, to combine characterization and plot effectively, but the payoff is worth it in the end, if the writer/author/artist can pull it off. Arakawa's shoddy characterization isn't a side-effect of having an epic plot. It's a failure on her part as an author at effective characterization, because a good author is able to pull all these threads together to make one coherent whole.

Oh, no, I agree. But the truth is that most writers go either one way or another. It is not common for a writer to be able to pull off both with equal effectiveness, and to do it in such a way that is complex, engaging, lengthy, and complete.

It's interesting that you bring up GRRM, since although it is true that he is capable of creating a complex plot with a series of complex characters, I find A Song of Ice and Fire to be tedious, grim, and I suspect, going nowhere, since I personally doubt he will ever finish it. Although the first two observations are merely personal preference, the last point is the salient one. Because if he can't finish the story, then his ability to bring it all together is ultimately meaningless, because that would suggest he has allowed his ambitions to outstrip his abilities. It may not be possible for him to sustain that level of writing all the way to the finish line.

If he DOES finish it, then it would be worthwhile to say that he can pull it off, but he hasn't yet. He's not even close.

And that brings me back to Arakawa. I believe that she is NOT overreaching, and that she will finish her story. It will not be perfect, but it's the story she's able to write, and although it is theoretically possible that she could do more with her characterization, I doubt that she could on a practical level. She is like a lot of writers: she is not perfect, she has her flaws as well as her strengths. And although I could wish that she were better at characterizations, I appreciate that she is telling us the story in a way that means she is likely to finish it. Arakawa is not a bad writer because she sacrifices characterization for plot... she's just not the best kind of writer.

The number of writers who are good enough to balance characterization and plot, to do it in a complex manner, and who can finish? Few. Few indeed.

Edited 2010-02-05 08:16 (UTC)

Fair point! We shall have to wait and see where GRRM goes with his series. I dearly hope he doesn't die before finishing it, as that would be a shame. I myself have faith that he will finish the story, or, at least, that he knows where he is going with it.

Of course, this is assuming that Arakawa's ending will not make us want to bash our heads into the wall. I'm seeing a very quick downhill slide into Harry Potter-esque epilogue, but that may just be me being horribly cynical. If the ending is that bad, however, I think I would prefer her not to finish it at all, and it would also be an indication that her plot has run away from her, in that she set herself up for a grand ending but couldn't quite make it. In any case, here's to hoping the ending will be good, though I honestly cannot imagine her ending the story in any way that will be . . . decent. Not even good, but just plain decent. Again, cynicism.

Clearly, she just needs to have Cthulu come out of the ground and eat everyone. I think that would be grand. *g*

I should confess here that Arakawa's uneven writing skills are a part of the reason why I became such a big fan of FMA to begin with.

The things that I love which I consider perfect are also things that I am content to love for what they are, and I don't end up seeking out the fandom, or coming up with my own alternate story ideas, or even getting really deep into shipping... a good story simply satisfies me, and although I will read truly good stories over and over again and consider myself a fan, I don't need anything more than that to make me happy.

FMA... is good enough to have captured my interest. It is not good enough to satisfy me, to truly satisfy me. If the ending is a train wreck, that might end up just making me be an even bigger fan, because it could easily inspire me to write even more fanfiction for the series than I have already. :) That said, I am not so selfish to actually hope for a train wreck ending, nor am I that foolish. It would be great if she can finish it well, or at least decently. We'll see!

I disagree with you about preferring her not to finish at all. As my friend

anax says, the worst story ever told is still better than the best story never told. I'm glad that FMA exists. Just as I'm glad that Harry Potter exists, and that Digimon exists, and that the Transformers exist... basically, all of the things that I love which are flawed and which frustrate me on a regular basis.

I should point out that this discussion has been a lot of fun. You're smart and articulate and what you say is interesting, regardless of whether I agree or not. Thanks! (I'm going to bed soon, so I might not reply any more this evening)

You're right, of course! I find that the flaws of the FMA manga and anime make great fodder for stories. It's excellent sometimes, a little unrefined other times, but that gives us a firm foundation and some nice raw potential to work with. I love it! (And Arakawa has certainly created some pretty damn nice groundwork, which is more than what I can say for my other main fandom, which is just a whole lot of potential but very little substance. All smoke and mirrors, I say.) Typically, the harsher and more detailed my criticism, the more I like what I'm talking about; I wouldn't spend so much time thinking about it otherwise.

The things that I love which I consider perfect are also things that I am content to love for what they are, and I don't end up seeking out the fandom, or coming up with my own alternate story ideas, or even getting really deep into shipping... a good story simply satisfies me, and although I will read truly good stories over and over again and consider myself a fan, I don't need anything more than that to make me happy.

I'm mostly the same way with the things I truly like. I try not to mess with the things I love, but for a bit of a different reason - not necessarily because the canon satisfies me, but because I'm afraid to taint it with my touch. Dumb way of thinking, right? (People say to write what you love and all that good stuff . . .) It's why I don't actually write about the characters/pairings I like all that often. I'm just afraid of messing them up and having people draw the "wrong" conclusions about that character/pairing from the portrayal in a story, and then I'd feel absolutely horrible. Ideal world in my head, but once it gets down on paper, it's absolute dreck, and people will think what they will. So the only thing I can do to keep people from making these "wrong" assumptions is to . . . not write the story! Hah. My logic fails me even now, sometimes.

We'll have to disagree on the "no ending" side, but I'm showing my bias. Open endings fascinate me. Also, I'm actually not overly concerned with what happens in the canon after the initial set-up. I'll bitch about it or praise it sometimes, but - you know, it's fandom and there will always be stories. I think the best phrase I can use to describe it is "time out of mind", if that makes sense. It's there, and I'm glad it exists, but I don't care for it beyond a certain point in its existence. This would explain why the ending of Shamballa doesn't piss me off as much as it should. Open-ended and I don't particularly care! Hurrah, it's a win-win situation for me.

And yes, this has been an interesting discussion! I normally don't come out of my shell because I'm afraid of wank (and this secret inspires all sorts of wank), but I'm glad I decided to chime in, because you've raised some interesting points. Your initial comment about people often mistaking a badass character for a well-written character is a good one, and it's one of the things that I've been trying to articulate for a while but just haven't been able to. (I might also go so far as to say people do mistake badassery for strength, in the complete sense of the word. A badass character isn't even necessarily strong as a person or well-written as a character.) In any case, I feel that much of what's going on with Riza is that Arakawa isn't entirely sure whether she wants to make Riza a character or a plot device, so she's stuck her in some horrible limbo between the two extremes, and it rubs some people the wrong way.

Because I want to make sure of what you're saying before I jump into the deep-end - are these your points? If they aren't, please correct me. I'm trying to sift through your post to respond but I'm a little confused as to what you're trying to say.

i.) Riza is a strong person, but not necessarily a well-written character. (From the line: "She may be a strong person AS a character...But she is NOT a strong character...")
ii.) Well-written characters have to be dynamic. Static characters are not well-written characters. (This gathered from this line: "Riza, like many of the FMA characters actually, is not strong in this sense. She does not grow or change during the course of the story...")

That being said, I'll pose a few questions: Why do you think well-written characters have to be dynamic? Is it possible to have a well-written static character? From your post above, it sounds like you would say that it is not possible to have a well-written static character.

Your definition of "static" is also causing me some confusion. On the one hand, you use it to mean "lack of change in a character", which is the commonly accepted meaning of the word. On the other hand, you imply that it means depth. (Taken from here: "Where does she experience doubts, where are we given a sense that she could have chosen something other than being Roy's support?) You can say that character change is depth, of course, that one is the other, but what about a character who reaffirms her values despite her doubts? In essence, that character is still a static character, as that character still is making a decision that she would've made at the beginning of the story. Here, the addition of depth doesn't equate with a character being more dynamic. The next question is going to be, of course, if a static character has depth and yet doesn't change, is that character still well-written?

I am also going to ask for clarification on this point: You keep using the word "strong" when you mean, I assume, "well-written." Is there is a reason you keep using the word "strong"? Is there some nuance of meaning you're trying to catch?

Sorry for being a little nitpicky. I just want to be sure you're saying what I think you're saying before I type up an essay that isn't worth shit because I misinterpreted a point you made.

It is hard for me to reply at length atm, since right now I'm away from my computer and typing on a cell phone is a pain.

A well written character is complex. Whether she changes a lot or a little, she should have layers and nuance, should have interests of her own, and a set of thing she wants, not just one thing. Although this needn't be illustrated directly in canon, the implication shd be there, in her dialogue and the choices she makes. To me, Riza is a supremely reactive character, with little personal initative outside of a tight set of defined goals.

By static I mean that she has neither depth nor initative, so does not change. I don't mean that she can't have these things, but the way she is written precludes it.

See her pivotal decision top trust roy with the secrets on her back. I don't know why she does this. I don't even know why she has the tattoo to begin with. Unless her dad was sadistic, she had to agree to let him do it, at an age when such a choice might be meaningful. Why? Especially since it seems clear that she didn't have either the interest or aptitude to become an alchemist herself. And then, she joins the military despite believing in peace. Why? Did she already love Roy, and so was willing to compromise her principles? His idealism failed the both of them, and put them into a situation where both had become killers. Was she ever mad? Who knows?

I suspect I am rambling because of my difficulties typing. But basically, I don't see why I shouldn't use the word strong to refer to whether she is well written, since it is common to look at stories and characters and judge them on their strength. Riza seems to me to be beloved more because she is admirable and relatable, than because she reflects anything approaching the complexity and often contradictoryt and irrational behavior that characterizes real humans.

So - just to get this straight - if those things were explained, you'd happy to accept her as a well-written character, and thus, a strong one?

Probably. It would be nice to know some more personal, irrelevant things about her, too... just little things like if she reads mystery novels, or what is her favorite kind of pistol, or... you know. Anything small and human.

About the closest thing I can think of is that she named her dog Black Hayate, and that little detail alone humanized her enough that I couldn't possible hate her, no matter how frustrating her lack of characterization is otherwise. "Black Hayate" implies an unexpected cuteness, a kind of dorkiness that I am very fond of in my stoical characters... it's a nice touch, but there's just not enough of this going on, you know? Same thing with Scar and his love of cats... it's a cute detail that really helps flesh out his manga persona, but it just isn't enough, since we don't see him spend enough time WITH cats for this to be meaningful.

Obviously, what the FMA manga needs is more scenes of Riza with her dog. XD

You, ma'am, have my undying admiration for being able to type all of that on a cell phone. I salute you. I can barely manage a good four word sentence on a cell phone myself. Thanks for going to all the effort just to answer my post.

So, your main point is not that Riza is not a well-written character because she is static, but that she is not a well-written character because she isn't portrayed with enough depth. Okay, that's pretty much all I wanted to clear up. You were using some terms interchangeably in a way that fudged me up for quite a while.

Complexity doesn't necessarily imply dynamism in a character. Depth and initiative don't necessarily imply change. What you're saying is that the depth and initiative are missing in the manga version of Riza. Yes, yes, and yes. I agree unequivocally with you. I was just taking issue with how you implied in the post that well-written = dynamic, and static = badly written, when you had meant depth & initiative = complex = well-written. Just me raising my hackles.

That said: Riza seems to me to be beloved more because she is admirable and relatable, than because she reflects anything approaching the complexity and often contradictoryt and irrational behavior that characterizes real humans.

The ironic thing is that much of what she does is really damn confusing (and sometimes irritating) precisely because it comes off as contradictory. We don't know why she does what she does partly because of lack of detail, but also partly because we just don't know how she gets from Point A to Point B in a logical, rational manner. Just something I find interesting. I find her character to be inherently . . . badly presented, mostly. She's more of a plot device than a character; this is true of most of the secondary characters in the FMA manga.

As for the last point, the word "strong" carries a different connotation. When people use the word "strong" to talk about a character, they are usually referring to the character as a person and not necessarily the character as she is written. It was just something that kept tripping me up all over the place in your post, as I had to mentally replace every "strong" with "well-written." (I think the other anon up there had the same issue.) Just a clarification issue. I think your post would've been clearer if you had stuck to one term.

Sorry for the confusion, and I'm glad to have been able to clear things up.

And I think you might be right about my use of the word "strong," although I didn't expect it to be confusing. In my usual circles, I don't think my use of the word in this context would have been misunderstood, so it just didn't occur to me that others might read what I said in a different way.

I try my best to treat fandomsecrets as a general forum, and so I make efforts to use language in a way that would be commonly understood, but obviously I misjudged in this case. I will definitely be more thoughtful the next time I talk about strong characters, since it obviously doesn't mean the same thing to everyone that it does to me.

ESSAY LOVE AGAIN. <3

As someone who is a huge fan of hers and has been for years, I would just like to say thank you. The last year of the manga has been very frustrating in that regard, and as much as I love every incarnation of FMA, I think she deserves better.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #1126 ]

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Not the same anonymous...

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randomly popping back in here.

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i have nothing new to add, listen to be ramble into the empty tubes of the internet

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