fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1126 ]

[ SECRET POST #1126 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1126 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 078 secrets from Secret Submission Post #161.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Not having enough flaws is one of the defining characteristics of a Mary Sue, dude. She doesn't fit entirely because she's not a big enough influence on the plot, but she definitely has characteristics of a Mary Sue.

FMA has its share of Stuish characters, too.

I don't think you even really know what a Mary Sue is if you think they're just a character who's a little too good. Mary Sues are super-magical-special-kawaii-etc characters that show up and suddenly have the plot revolve around them. The cast loves them the moment they show up and the most desirable man/woman instantly falls in love with them. Color changing eyes, being more powerful than the main characters and having some one of a kind power are the defining traits of Mary Sues.

Riza, however, has brown eyes, is certainly less powerful than Ed and Roy, and I wouldn't exactly call sniping a one of a kind power either. She has a past with Roy and wasn't just shoved into the plot willy nilly, either.

Nope. Mary Sues are defined more by how they impact the story and by how other characters to them. You can have a completely plain, even average character--like Bella from Twilight--and still have them be a Mary Sue.

But, as you appear to have misread my post in your defensiveness, I'll say it again: Riza is not a Mary Sue, because she doesn't have the kind of black-hole effect on the plot that Mary Sues usually do. But she has some Sueish traits. Lots of characters in the series do, though, because Arakawa has made the cast so extensive that very few of them get developed well, if at all.

OT: Bella calls herself plain and average, yet every guy within a 5 mile radius falls in love with her, and she is the only person in the worlds who's mind Edward can't read. So she has her own special speshulness, in her own special way.

Hence why I say that the reactions of other characters are important. Aside from being apparently quite attractive, she's a really boring person. The fact that this has no impact on the way that people perceive her is what defines her as a Sue.

I don't really recall a point where all the characters gushed over her looks anywhere in canon. And you think she's boring, but other's don't. Have you thought about why you think she's sueish and boring? By any chance, do you tend to think that way about female characters in other canons?

Why is she sueish and boring? Hmm...

She has few discernible interests beyond reading and cars; she has few defining character traits beyond complaining a lot and being clumsy; she's a jerk to her father and nobody calls her out on it; her entire character basically revolves around a boy with whom she seems to have nothing in common.

I very rarely think that female protagonists are boring though. My current favorite character is Kyoko Mogami from Skip Beat, for example. Followed closely by Yoko Nakajima from The Twelve Kingdoms. Then comes Temeraire from his titular novel.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2010-02-05 08:32 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2010-02-05 12:54 (UTC) - Expand

Riza is not a Mary Sue, because she doesn't have the kind of black-hole effect on the plot that Mary Sues usually do. But she has some Sueish traits. Lots of characters in the series do, though, because Arakawa has made the cast so extensive that very few of them get developed well, if at all.

Ding, ding! We have a winner!

Many of the secondary characters in the manga are developed just enough so that they can serve the purpose of furthering the plot. Once they've done that, character development is pretty much dropped. That is why many of the secondary characters tend to come off as either underdeveloped or a bit Sueish/Stuish. Their strengths are extolled or elaborated upon, but then Arakawa needs to move on, so we never get to see any of the characters' flaws. They're sacrificed for the sake of story movement.

In that case, they aren't Mary Sues, they're just plot points. Canon characters as Mary Sues, except in extreme cases like Bella Swan, goes against the original definition of the term. Arakawa isn't using Riza as some sort of wish fulfillment for herself and when you get down to it, that is the one thing that ties all Mary Sues together.

Dude, I didn't say they were Mary Sues. In fact, I quoted the part of the message saying, "Riza is not a Mary Sue," and then I expounded on that point. =|

I totally ended up mixing your post up with the other anon's posting in my head, sorry. /o\

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2010-02-05 07:01 (UTC) - Expand

Amendment!

Having said that, I don't know what I consider to be worse: Mary Sues or characters trying to pass off as characters when they are really just plot devices. Just food for thought.

TBH, this is one thing that really bothers me about the writing of FMA. Because so few of her characters much depth, it often feel like the plot is moving along inorganically. Many of her characters, heroes and villains alike, seem to have been stitched into an already woven tapestry. When, ideally, I feel like the characters should be the ones (or at least seem to be the ones) weaving that tapestry.

Some people prefer to have the plot take precedence, though this is a matter of taste. And tbh, the characters are woven in to a big tapestry- it's kind of a big thing in the sotry of FMA, seeing as they're swept up in a plot spanning centuries. Thematically, it fits.

And being too character driven in an epic plot can lead to disaster. *cough*EndofBattlestarGalactica*cough*

That's not a problem to do with a story being character driven; it's a problem to do with the writers not knowing what the fuck they're doing.

Also, I tend to find the plot seems to be inorganic when you're waiting months between chapters- it helps to go back and reread it all in one go, it seems much smoother.

And I do think that things started moving a little fast post-Briggs, but I'll take "A little fast" over the months of pointless battles that are in most shounen any day.

Dude, I wish I knew who you were, because that is precisely my problem with the FMA manga. (At least, one of the problems, in any case.) It's nice to know there's someone out there who feels the same.

I know some people will pass it off as a matter of taste (plot-driven story vs. character-driven story), when it is anything but. It is very possible to have an epic, sprawling plot that is still character-driven at its very core. George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series is a good example of a character-driven epic story. It doesn't feel as if there's a hand hovering in the air moving the characters around like chess pieces. It feels like the characters themselves and their motivations are moving the plot forward. It's not external, it's internal. Plot-driven and character-driven stories are not mutually exclusive, no matter what most people say. Because the story starts with the character, when you break it all down. You can have a story without a plot, but you cannot have a story without a character.

It's funny that you should bring up A Song Of Ice and Fire, since I often think of it as something to contrast with the FMA manga. It has a comparably-sized cast, a similar storytelling style, and a plot that is arguable even more far-reaching and epic. And yet, it seems to avoid all of the biggest flaws found in FMA.

I like to think that A Song Of Ice and Fire is what happens when the characterization and tone of the first anime is combined with the large-scale, solid plotting of the manga.

You can have a story without a plot, but you cannot have a story without a character.

I agree completely.

(no subject)

adraekh.livejournal.com - 2010-02-05 07:09 (UTC) - Expand

"Not having enough flaws" is only one of the symptoms of being a Mary Sue. Saying that Riza is a Mary Sue, or even Mary Sue-ish, because of it, is like saying that Father is a Gary Stu just because he's the (so far) most talented alchemist (...thing.) The term is used wayyyy to flippantly, and as the other anonymous commenter said, it gets directed far more at women than it does at men. If I saw people calling out Ed as a Gary Stu as much as I saw them calling out Riza, this wouldn't be nearly as irritating as it is.

(For the record, I don't think that Ed is a Gary Stu. But hey, he became an incredibly alchemist at a young age, he figured out how to bring someone back from the dead - or very nearly - also at a really young age, it took him comparatively very short time to get used to his automail, he gets offered the position of State Alchemist at a very young age, he's got a tragic backstory in the shape of a dead mother and a disappearing father - who is an immortal - so, yeah, if he was an original character in a fic he would almost certainly be called a Gary Stu, and has far more going for him in this department than Riza "oh she's not flawed enough" Hawkeye.

I realise you're admitting that there are characters who could be considered Gary Stus in FMA, so please don't take this rant personally! But to reiterate - people are more likely to call a female character out on being a Mary Sue than they are a guy, especially, it seems, in shounen, and to me that's a horrible trend.)

I actually think Al is much more Stuish than Ed by a longshot. Ed's become a bit Stuish in the latest chapters, TBH, but Al has always been a little too flawless, grounded and competent. The one time he actually seemed to display some kind of flaw, it was gone quickly and never spoken of again.

Riza has Sueish traits, and it's silly to try and deny it. If you can name me a single flaw that has any real impact on her characterization, I'd be happy to hear them.

That said, I agree that people use the term too flippantly, and that it's often used to describe any character (usually female) that somebody just doesn't like.

I don't see how she's any more Sueish than any other character in the main cast, and that in itself argues against her being a Sue; in the FMAverse, she is not a particularly unusual or unrealistic character.

When did I say she was more Sueish than anyone else? Al definitely beats her in that respect, since he gets significantly more spotlight.

in the FMAverse, she is not a particularly unusual or unrealistic character.

That's not a good thing. It means that most of the characters are underdeveloped and not sufficiently flawed. I'll agree with Herongale on this one: Arakawa is good with plot, but tends to fall short on characterization a lot of the time.

When did I say she was more Sueish than anyone else?

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that; what I'm saying is that if everyone in the canon has "Sueish" traits, then I don't think that those traits are Sueish in that canon. For a more extreme example, one character in, say, Ouran, being able to perform alchemy would be extremely Sueish, but since alchemy is an accepted part of FMA, it's not a Sueish trait there.

That's not a good thing. It means that most of the characters are underdeveloped and not sufficiently flawed.

I disagree, but I think this is mainly a matter of taste. (For example, I really enjoy Cardcaptor Sakura, in which none of the characters have significant flaws, but I can understand why someone would dislike it for that reason.) I also think that Riza does have flaws, chief among them being her reliance on Roy; this is both her weakness and her strength.

When you say "All the characters are a little sueish" it completely waters down the use of the term "sueish." Any given Twilight character has "sueish" tendencies, for example. Does FMA portray it's characters in such a lovingly purple prose-y way? Of course not!

Also, flaws don't make a character- too humans aren't perfect, but too many flaws just gives you someone unlikeable. Or Yoki.

I never said that all the characters are Sueish, but some of them definitely are--insofar as they have traits generally attributed to "Mary Sues".

Also, flaws don't make a character- too humans aren't perfect, but too many flaws just gives you someone unlikeable. Or Yoki.

Flaws don't have to be things that make somebody unlikeable; they just have to be traits that cause the characters difficultly in some way. Things that we think of as strengths can in fact be flaws. Determination warping into obsession, far example, or kindness warping into condescension. And what if that kindness stems from a desire to feel better about oneself? Self-hatred is also a flaw.

That said, strengths don't make a character, either. What makes a good, well-rounded character is having both strengths and weaknesses. Edward and Roy are well-rounded characters.

(no subject)

adraekh.livejournal.com - 2010-02-05 07:30 (UTC) - Expand

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