Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2010-05-02 05:14 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2010-05-02 05:14 pm
[ SECRET POST #1216 ]
⌈ Secret Post #1216 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 15 pages, 351 secrets from Secret Submission Post #174.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - empty comments ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
There are certain words that literate people should know how to use and spell. If you have a computer and access to the internet, you have all the tools you need to learn basic grammar. Past a certain age, you should know the differences between "it's" and "its," and "your" and "you're," and the like. It's simply unacceptable when people throw the basic structures of spelling out the window just because it's informal writing. I absolutely loathe hearing (or seeing) people justify their ignorance by insinuating that proper use of their mother tongue is only necessary in academic settings. I have seen ESL people with a better grasp of English than native speakers. I think it's fucking sad. I think it's ridiculous that my English Composition professor had to give my class a basic spelling and grammar test after we turned in our first paper. I think it's ridiculous that I was the only person out of about fifteen who aced it. I think it's ridiculous that high school teachers no longer correct spelling and grammar in papers. I think it's ridiculous that my teacher for my online college class thinks it's perfectly fine to use "lol" and smiley faces on announcements and emails.
Do I think some people are needlessly nitpicky? Yes. Do I think people should be allowed to get away with brutalizing their native language into an unrecognizable pulp? No.
So, yeah, while I may not be one of the people openly mocking secret-makers for little mistakes, I hope that some of the ridicule provokes people into learning their own goddamn language.
no subject
Also, on the prof, I think it kind of depends on the relationship you have with him or her. I have professors who I could imagine using a smiley in reassurance, but some I'd be shocked if they even considered it. I think it depends on the type of person they are and the relationship you have with them (this is doubly true if they are using sarcasm as tone is rather hard to convey).
no subject
I don't think proper grammar is the end-all be-all of intelligence, but if you want to cook properly, you've got to know the difference between a teaspoon and a tablespoon, right? Doesn't mean you won't mix it up every once in a while, but it's something you should know, regardless.
And the professor uses them all the time. I dropped her class last time because not only was I swamped with work from my other classes, but her informal way of handling the class really rubbed me the wrong way, as if she figured that because it was the internet, she didn't have to articulate herself properly. I'm only taking it now because I need to make up the credit and she's the only one that offers it online :/
no subject
So I mean, it does rub me the wrong way too if it's a consistent problem (or just clear lack of caring), but at the same time, I certainly don't believe in keeping a scorecard.
no subject
Scorecards, no, but I'm still going to point out to people that "irregardless" isn't a word, whether they're speaking or typing. And I do tend to stop reading or listening to a person if they're lacking sense, which tends to go hand-in-hand with lack of proper grammar and spelling (more-so with typing than with speaking).
no subject
If you have a computer and access to the internet, you have all the tools you need to learn basic grammar.
This is untrue. If you are a Grammar cop then you of all people should know that the sources on the internet are contradictory. I have three grammar/punctuation guides on my shelf, and I still can't cobble together a workable understanding of comma usage. Now part of this is that comma usage is shifting and has been shifting since I was first taught the basics of grammar but tell me: is that comma before the "and" in the sentence above correct? Because I have been told that it is and that it is not, very strongly.
Also, there are grammar rules that I was taught as a kid in the 70s/80s that are actually no longer followed, such as two spaces after a colon or period. And in addition there are grammar rules that are currently being fought over by the grammar police, such as the oxford comma. Some people feel very strongly about the oxford comma, and will tell you about it at length. Imagine my surprise when I researched it and apparently both ways are correct.
All non-academic speech is not informal speech. When I say informal speech I mean the equivalent of a handwritten note or perhaps a personal letter—anything that would have been handwritten say, 40 years ago. Business correspondence is formal speech. So do I think it's appropriate for someone to grammar-cop the incorrect use of "their" in, say, a handwritten note at the bottom of a greeting card? No. And I feel that the crew of people correcting tweets and texts and chat (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/29/fashion/29twitter.html) are doing the same.
It is in fact absurd because most people tweet from their phone, and most phones don't have anything like spell check. So one is dashing off a quick note to a friend, typing with one's thumbs. I'm not sure that's the time that we need to require editing skills.
For the record, most of my ESL students are much poorer writers than my native English speakers.
I hope that some of the ridicule provokes people into learning their own goddamn language.
That would be great if that were the effect. Instead, it teaches us that some people do not deserve to be part of the conversation while others do. In response to that kind of ridicule people simply stop writing. And that carves perspectives out of the conversation. Given that most people learn grammar in elementary school, and generally the quality of your elementary school is determined by where you live and the wealth of your community, it's very classist.
There used to be a great deal of informal writing that happily was preserved for us historians to use as primary resources. The recovery of letters and diaries written by regular folks has immensely increased our understanding of the everyday lives of those who lived before us—enabling good social and cultural history. Selfishly as a historian (an historian? I think this is personal preference these days) I wouldn't want to lose that resource. And let me tell you, those old letters and diaries, even from very educated and erudite men and women? Are rife with grammar and spelling errors and casual abbreviations (from back when paper was pricey). Very little that happens on Twitter, in chat, in texts, in replies on blog posts is unlike letters between literary giants of the eighteenth or nineteenth century.
(And by the way, the secrets that have mistakes? Photoshop, like most graphics programs, doesn't have spell check. It was created for graphics pros who are manipulating already-edited text. But of course when you're making your own secrets you are changing the wording on the fly, and sometimes there are typos! None of us have secretaries any more, after all.)
no subject
- Yes, there are debatable specifics regarding the grammatical rules. I had a teacher try to tell me that I used too many commas, but none of the commas I used were arbitrarily placed for the sake of sticking commas in there. My boyfriend once argued with me on where end punctuation goes when there are parentheses involved, and the information we found contradicted what he was taught. Yes, I understand that language evolves, and I generally don't bother with attacking people for their own logical interpretations of specifics. However, there are some very solid rules that a lot of people agree on, and it's mostly those rules that I judge people on. I'm sure everyone will agree that "you're" is a contraction for "you are," and "your" is not.
- That example was aimed at the people who bitch at Grammar Police by saying, "This isn't English class/school, so what does it matter?" I didn't mean to imply that everything outside of academia was informal.
- I did mean to include a clause regarding things such as Twitter and SMS. There's also a reason I've sworn to never join Twitter. I can't stand "txt tlk" even though I understand the necessity for it in that situation. Unless the Tweeters (Twits?) are mixing up homonyms like "here" and "hear," (I'm looking at you, Misha Collins) I think it's useless to even bother being bothered by it.
- I never meant to imply that a great majority of ESL students had a better grasp than a great majority of native speakers. I know English is a difficult language. It's just that I've interacted with some very articulate people who learned English as a second language later in life, and I've interacted with people (my own parents included) that have spoken and written English all their lives and still mix up "your" and "you're."
- It would be great. If I could just berate people into wanting to educate themselves, I'd be a much bigger internet bully than I am. But I know that's not the case. It's why I'm going into being an English teacher, so I can educate people instead of ignoring them.
- Handwriting, especially in personal correspondence, is one of those places where I wouldn't be judgmental. Much. I don't always spell things correctly when I write by hand, and my thoughts are always disorganized and scattered. It's why I prefer typing. But again, that sort of situation is understandable. There's no spell-check for pen and paper. But most web browsers nowadays have spell-check. LJ has spell-check. Word has spell-check. There's a lovely site called dictionary.com where people can go to look up words to make sure they're using them correctly. (I've learned the hard way that taking the time to use a dictionary is worth it to not have people jump down my throat for misusing a word.)
- Again, typos are understandable. I've made my fair share in the past, and will make more in the future. I don't usually nitpick at typos. I nitpick at the complete and utter disregard to even try.
no subject
I have seen ESL people with a better grasp of English than native speakers. I think it's fucking sad.
That's not sad at all. Actually, it's pretty common for a person to have a better grasp of the mechanics of a second language than their mother tongue. Why? Because you approach your native language with a tabula rasa that allows you to learn to communicate in small, familial steps that are conversational and are not necessarily restricted to the rigors of "proper" speech and communication. In other words, you learn how it is spoken first, then how it is spoken and written properly second.
When you learn a second language, it's the opposite. Plus, you are often in an academic setting where you are constantly corrected on what constitutes "proper" speech and writing for that particular language. Simply put, there are social and environmental factors in place in one scenario that aren't in place in the other.
I think if you were to talk to those ESL students in their native tongue, they probably wouldn't speak that language with the same attention to proper rules of grammar, syntax, and elocution as they speak the English language.
Sorry to be nitpicky, but I just wanted to correct that misconception.
no subject