Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2010-05-02 05:14 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2010-05-02 05:14 pm
[ SECRET POST #1216 ]
⌈ Secret Post #1216 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 15 pages, 351 secrets from Secret Submission Post #174.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - empty comments ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
I particularly despise it when they seize on informal writing like texts, tweets, or chats. If it's something like a fic that should have been beta-read, sure. But when people tweet back about your grammar? When you typed up the thing on a phone? No.
Also, when it's brought up here on FS or on blog posts or similar it's usually just used to dismiss someone's argument, as if the improper placement of one punctuation mark clearly means that the poster is an idiot and no attention should be paid to the content of their argument.
It's this strange way that people feel the need to police informal writing just because it's written. I shudder to think what they would have done back in the day when people wrote letters to each other by hand. It also implies that the only people who should write anything are those who had perfect elementary educations, which is incredibly classist.
no subject
Oh U.
no subject
Seriously, is everything coming out of the tips of my fingers supposed to be magically perfect for me to be on the internet?
no subject
There are certain words that literate people should know how to use and spell. If you have a computer and access to the internet, you have all the tools you need to learn basic grammar. Past a certain age, you should know the differences between "it's" and "its," and "your" and "you're," and the like. It's simply unacceptable when people throw the basic structures of spelling out the window just because it's informal writing. I absolutely loathe hearing (or seeing) people justify their ignorance by insinuating that proper use of their mother tongue is only necessary in academic settings. I have seen ESL people with a better grasp of English than native speakers. I think it's fucking sad. I think it's ridiculous that my English Composition professor had to give my class a basic spelling and grammar test after we turned in our first paper. I think it's ridiculous that I was the only person out of about fifteen who aced it. I think it's ridiculous that high school teachers no longer correct spelling and grammar in papers. I think it's ridiculous that my teacher for my online college class thinks it's perfectly fine to use "lol" and smiley faces on announcements and emails.
Do I think some people are needlessly nitpicky? Yes. Do I think people should be allowed to get away with brutalizing their native language into an unrecognizable pulp? No.
So, yeah, while I may not be one of the people openly mocking secret-makers for little mistakes, I hope that some of the ridicule provokes people into learning their own goddamn language.
no subject
Also, on the prof, I think it kind of depends on the relationship you have with him or her. I have professors who I could imagine using a smiley in reassurance, but some I'd be shocked if they even considered it. I think it depends on the type of person they are and the relationship you have with them (this is doubly true if they are using sarcasm as tone is rather hard to convey).
no subject
I don't think proper grammar is the end-all be-all of intelligence, but if you want to cook properly, you've got to know the difference between a teaspoon and a tablespoon, right? Doesn't mean you won't mix it up every once in a while, but it's something you should know, regardless.
And the professor uses them all the time. I dropped her class last time because not only was I swamped with work from my other classes, but her informal way of handling the class really rubbed me the wrong way, as if she figured that because it was the internet, she didn't have to articulate herself properly. I'm only taking it now because I need to make up the credit and she's the only one that offers it online :/
no subject
So I mean, it does rub me the wrong way too if it's a consistent problem (or just clear lack of caring), but at the same time, I certainly don't believe in keeping a scorecard.
no subject
Scorecards, no, but I'm still going to point out to people that "irregardless" isn't a word, whether they're speaking or typing. And I do tend to stop reading or listening to a person if they're lacking sense, which tends to go hand-in-hand with lack of proper grammar and spelling (more-so with typing than with speaking).
no subject
If you have a computer and access to the internet, you have all the tools you need to learn basic grammar.
This is untrue. If you are a Grammar cop then you of all people should know that the sources on the internet are contradictory. I have three grammar/punctuation guides on my shelf, and I still can't cobble together a workable understanding of comma usage. Now part of this is that comma usage is shifting and has been shifting since I was first taught the basics of grammar but tell me: is that comma before the "and" in the sentence above correct? Because I have been told that it is and that it is not, very strongly.
Also, there are grammar rules that I was taught as a kid in the 70s/80s that are actually no longer followed, such as two spaces after a colon or period. And in addition there are grammar rules that are currently being fought over by the grammar police, such as the oxford comma. Some people feel very strongly about the oxford comma, and will tell you about it at length. Imagine my surprise when I researched it and apparently both ways are correct.
All non-academic speech is not informal speech. When I say informal speech I mean the equivalent of a handwritten note or perhaps a personal letter—anything that would have been handwritten say, 40 years ago. Business correspondence is formal speech. So do I think it's appropriate for someone to grammar-cop the incorrect use of "their" in, say, a handwritten note at the bottom of a greeting card? No. And I feel that the crew of people correcting tweets and texts and chat (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/29/fashion/29twitter.html) are doing the same.
It is in fact absurd because most people tweet from their phone, and most phones don't have anything like spell check. So one is dashing off a quick note to a friend, typing with one's thumbs. I'm not sure that's the time that we need to require editing skills.
For the record, most of my ESL students are much poorer writers than my native English speakers.
I hope that some of the ridicule provokes people into learning their own goddamn language.
That would be great if that were the effect. Instead, it teaches us that some people do not deserve to be part of the conversation while others do. In response to that kind of ridicule people simply stop writing. And that carves perspectives out of the conversation. Given that most people learn grammar in elementary school, and generally the quality of your elementary school is determined by where you live and the wealth of your community, it's very classist.
There used to be a great deal of informal writing that happily was preserved for us historians to use as primary resources. The recovery of letters and diaries written by regular folks has immensely increased our understanding of the everyday lives of those who lived before us—enabling good social and cultural history. Selfishly as a historian (an historian? I think this is personal preference these days) I wouldn't want to lose that resource. And let me tell you, those old letters and diaries, even from very educated and erudite men and women? Are rife with grammar and spelling errors and casual abbreviations (from back when paper was pricey). Very little that happens on Twitter, in chat, in texts, in replies on blog posts is unlike letters between literary giants of the eighteenth or nineteenth century.
(And by the way, the secrets that have mistakes? Photoshop, like most graphics programs, doesn't have spell check. It was created for graphics pros who are manipulating already-edited text. But of course when you're making your own secrets you are changing the wording on the fly, and sometimes there are typos! None of us have secretaries any more, after all.)
no subject
- Yes, there are debatable specifics regarding the grammatical rules. I had a teacher try to tell me that I used too many commas, but none of the commas I used were arbitrarily placed for the sake of sticking commas in there. My boyfriend once argued with me on where end punctuation goes when there are parentheses involved, and the information we found contradicted what he was taught. Yes, I understand that language evolves, and I generally don't bother with attacking people for their own logical interpretations of specifics. However, there are some very solid rules that a lot of people agree on, and it's mostly those rules that I judge people on. I'm sure everyone will agree that "you're" is a contraction for "you are," and "your" is not.
- That example was aimed at the people who bitch at Grammar Police by saying, "This isn't English class/school, so what does it matter?" I didn't mean to imply that everything outside of academia was informal.
- I did mean to include a clause regarding things such as Twitter and SMS. There's also a reason I've sworn to never join Twitter. I can't stand "txt tlk" even though I understand the necessity for it in that situation. Unless the Tweeters (Twits?) are mixing up homonyms like "here" and "hear," (I'm looking at you, Misha Collins) I think it's useless to even bother being bothered by it.
- I never meant to imply that a great majority of ESL students had a better grasp than a great majority of native speakers. I know English is a difficult language. It's just that I've interacted with some very articulate people who learned English as a second language later in life, and I've interacted with people (my own parents included) that have spoken and written English all their lives and still mix up "your" and "you're."
- It would be great. If I could just berate people into wanting to educate themselves, I'd be a much bigger internet bully than I am. But I know that's not the case. It's why I'm going into being an English teacher, so I can educate people instead of ignoring them.
- Handwriting, especially in personal correspondence, is one of those places where I wouldn't be judgmental. Much. I don't always spell things correctly when I write by hand, and my thoughts are always disorganized and scattered. It's why I prefer typing. But again, that sort of situation is understandable. There's no spell-check for pen and paper. But most web browsers nowadays have spell-check. LJ has spell-check. Word has spell-check. There's a lovely site called dictionary.com where people can go to look up words to make sure they're using them correctly. (I've learned the hard way that taking the time to use a dictionary is worth it to not have people jump down my throat for misusing a word.)
- Again, typos are understandable. I've made my fair share in the past, and will make more in the future. I don't usually nitpick at typos. I nitpick at the complete and utter disregard to even try.
no subject
I have seen ESL people with a better grasp of English than native speakers. I think it's fucking sad.
That's not sad at all. Actually, it's pretty common for a person to have a better grasp of the mechanics of a second language than their mother tongue. Why? Because you approach your native language with a tabula rasa that allows you to learn to communicate in small, familial steps that are conversational and are not necessarily restricted to the rigors of "proper" speech and communication. In other words, you learn how it is spoken first, then how it is spoken and written properly second.
When you learn a second language, it's the opposite. Plus, you are often in an academic setting where you are constantly corrected on what constitutes "proper" speech and writing for that particular language. Simply put, there are social and environmental factors in place in one scenario that aren't in place in the other.
I think if you were to talk to those ESL students in their native tongue, they probably wouldn't speak that language with the same attention to proper rules of grammar, syntax, and elocution as they speak the English language.
Sorry to be nitpicky, but I just wanted to correct that misconception.
no subject
no subject
But yeah, misspelling ==> dismissing the entire argument is absurd.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2010-05-05 05:10 pm (UTC)(link)I JUDGE YOU BY YOUR USE OF APOSTROPHES.
It's a very simple convention if you spare five minutes to bother learning how to use it, and there is no excuse not to.
None.
Not even in texts, tweets, or chats -- all keyboards, all phones, all "mobile devices" have an apostrophe button or key or way to use the thing. I write correctly punctuated, capitalized, spelled texts and tweets because why should I expect people to bother reading it if I can't bother saying it?
You may shudder to think I feel a need to police informal writing, but I shudder to think that you're an educator at the college level who doesn't bother to provide such a fundamental of education as *effort matters*. I hope that your students go on to find instructors like my own humanities and social science professors who emphasize that the way you present your ideas is as important as what they are. That attention to detail has helped my career more than any other single experience in school, simply because being able to clearly articulate an idea, whether in 140 written characters or 50,000 words of technical reporting or an hour of speaking at a conference, is becoming as lost an art as letter-writing.
no subject
I assure you, they did not. I've spent a lot of time with the personal papers of many learned men and women and there are plenty of errors. Handwritten notes often have errors. And honestly I feel that a text and a tweet are no less informal for their being put into typed text rather than handwritten. If I'm typing in chat, I'm typing as fast as I can think, and I don't always catch all of my errors.
Do you also go around correcting people's grammar errors when they are talking to you? Because I think that is rude and inappropriate.
Do I notice incorrect use of apostrophes, and correct them where appropriate? Of course. Do I make an effort to use them correctly? Of course. Do I always catch when my iphone, by default, has changed an "its" to an "it's" when I really meant "its"? Of course not. Do I think that these people in the Times article who search twitter and send angry tweets to people who have done something incorrectly are wasting their damn time? Absolutely.
A great deal of our informal speech has moved from the spoken word to the written word. I would hate to think that people who aren't quite as adept in the finer points of language, because of people like you, would have their right to participate in the larger conversation taken away from them. THAT is what I am talking about.
But you know, to be honest, I can't be bothered judging people for their apostrophes. I'd much rather judge them by what they are trying to say to me.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2010-05-06 03:31 pm (UTC)(link)Now, while I'd love to get into some erudite mud-slinging about whose time in the stacks with old letters and documents is more significant and which of us has the bigger academic dick, I've got to get going. Work to do, under-classes to crush -- you know how it goes.
no subject
And that wasn't about big academic dicks or whatever; it was actually more, "No, the culture isn't grinding to halt. It was ever thus." I have no ax to grind with academia in either direction, nor do I find it to actually be all that elitist. Strange that you put all this agenda on what I said, or accused me of being a lousy teacher, or whateverthehell you said in your first comment to me.
The thing is, it doesn't bother me that much; I merely notice it. More importantly, I don't judge the person who made the error. THAT actually, really bothers me a lot—the constant ridiculous judging of people.
no subject
None.
Wow, there's an absolute statement just screaming to be refuted, so how about this one. My brother has a learning disability. He's not stupid, he's not uneducated. He, in fact, has a masters degree in philosophy. He also couldn't read until he was almost nine and to this day writing and reading are extremely challenging for him. He can't reliably use apostrophes or commas or distinguish homonyms. He's had all of these things explained to him, intelligent and caring people have sat down and tried to work with him so he could learn - it didn't work because print is not his friend.
By all means, judge complete strangers based on facial experiences; it shows your character, though, so don't be surprised when people judge you in return for your inability to approach the world with an open and accepting heart.