[ SECRET POST #1271 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1271 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

No mudkips, don't worry.

Secrets Left to Post: 25 pages, 608 secrets from Secret Submission Post #182.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[thene]

I'm not getting how male thoughts and experiences are so different from female thoughts and experiences that it should affect how a character is written. What happened to human thoughts and experiences?

Here's a quote from Are Women Human? by Dorothy L Sayers for you:

A man once asked me--it is true that it was at the end of a very good dinner, and the compliment conveyed may have been due to that circumstance--how I managed in my books to write such natural conversation between men when they were by themselves. Was I, by any chance, a member of a larged, mixed family with a lot of male friends? I replied that, on the contrary, I was an only child and had practically never seen or spoken to any men of my own age till I was about twenty-five. 'Well,' said the man, 'I shouldn't have expected a woman [meaning me] to have been able to make it so convincing.' I replied that I had coped with this difficult problem by making my men talk, as far as possible, like ordinary human beings. This aspect of the matter seemed to surprise the other speaker; he said no more, but took it away to chew it over. One of these days it may quite likely occur to him that women, as well as men, when left to themselves, talk very much like human beings also.

[cordelia-gray.livejournal.com]

This is an awesome quote, and I knew there was a reason I love La Sayers.

[thene]

I have been euphemistically IDing as a Friend Of Dorothy L Sayers lately :D

[cordelia-gray.livejournal.com]

Ooh! I like that :)

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, oh, heavens. This is so sane.
<3<3

[demiincarnate.livejournal.com]

No, I'd disagree. There are significant differences between men and women, some of which are innate but more of which arise in cultural environments and social expectations. Sure, a scene with men having a conversation may be similar to a scene with women having a conversation, but a story about a man is vastly different from a story about a woman. I would like to write about more female characters, myself, and every time I start a story I think to myself, "Would this story work the way I wanted it to if the main character were female instead of male?" Unfortunately, the answer is usually no.

[thene]

If 'a story about a man is vastly different from a story about a woman' then that is the whole entire problem; the story clearly works wrong.

The story would work if the main character were female. That's why/how fans write genderflips. Even if it wouldn't work 'the way you want it to' then it would work some other way.

[demiincarnate.livejournal.com]

Uh, no, the gender of the main character can make a huge difference in any work, good or bad. Limiting ourselves to literature: Would Othello or A Farewell to Arms be anything like the original story if the main characters were female? Would Medea or Hedda Gabler make any sense with male main characters?
Besides, even major details that don't affect the plot matter in a story. Setting, for instance, need not be a plot device, but it is a major contributor to a story's success. For instance, I was writing a story set in a small town, and I wasn't getting anywhere with it; it seemed very bland. I decided to set it in a walled city instead. Even though the change was superficial, it caused a major difference in the atmosphere of the story, which greatly improved it in my opinion.

[thene]

Okay. I've just spent a while retyping this comment so it sounds less wanky, but please tell me that you understand that what you are practising is straight-up, unambiguous misogyny? Saying you can't POSSIBLY write about female protagonists, it just CANNOT BE DONE, so you'll be using them as side characters for your male characters if at all...even if you believe wholeheartedly that this is your only option (which I believe it isn't) can't you see that the result is active, complete sexism?

Going back to what you said originally: I would like to write about more female characters, myself, and every time I start a story I think to myself, "Would this story work the way I wanted it to if the main character were female instead of male?" I don't understand why 'male main character' is the starting point and 'female character' is a possible 'instead of'. Why not start with 'main character' and take it from there? Why not flip a coin before starting?

[(Anonymous)]

I think what they are trying to say is that if you have a certain plot/storyline/setting in mind, sometimes it needs a certain sex character for that specific role. For example, if you wanted to write about Victorian England and some mystery/deceit/conspiracy plot about a person in power, it would be much harder to have the main character be female. It would also be hard to write about being on the front lines if that country's army doesn't allow females to serve in combat. There are also many settings and plots that would not work with a male as the main character unless they wanted to change a bunch of details around, and sometimes that's just not what you want to do as an author. Sure, these things can be done if you try hard enough (ie crossdressing, changing details/time periods, switching perspective to a side character, etc.) that could make the story interesting for other reasons, but it may change it drastically from their original idea.

And, well, if that's not what they're trying to say, I think that's a decent point either way.

[demiincarnate.livejournal.com]

?! No, I would say that it is NOT misogyny.
First of all, I never said that I CAN'T write about female protagonists - I said that I don't want to write stories about women. (That is, I want to write stories which necessitate male characters.) I certainly do write female characters, and even female protagonists. I just do so less often, out of personal preference.
Second of all, I don't see how it is hateful to women (this would be how I define misogyny) to not feature them as protagonists in my stories. I am not harming any real women by doing so. I am not even harming any fictional women by doing so - I am sparing them from being a character in one of my stories, because my stories rarely turn out to have happy endings. I would understand that it would be misogynist if I made all female characters flat or unrealistic, or relegated them to less important roles in society, or claimed they couldn't do the things men do, but I am not doing any of those things.
Third of all, I write what I want to write. I like to write stories about soldiers in 19th century wars, and about Nixon-era politicians. Main characters in these stories are not female by necessity. I like to write about the themes of fatherhood, of male friendship, of discrimination against male homosexuals. These are different from their female counterparts. The reasons WHY I prefer to write about these things are as moot as the reasons why I write at all. I do not have a moral obligation to write about things I do not want to.
About my comment: I do start with a male main character by default. I recognize that this is not necessarily the right thing to do, only what I prefer to do, and this is why I make an effort to change it. The reason I do not flip a coin, however, is because I prefer to come up with a plot first, and then decide on a character who would fit this plot. I choose the character design I find most inspiring; usually, I find female character designs uninspiring. This is not my choice, whether or not to be inspired.

[(Anonymous)]

Sure it would. You just have to write about bisexual shapeshifters like I do. After all, if they are equally capable of being male as female, you can do some interesting things with characterization.

[demiincarnate.livejournal.com]

....Sometimes I want to write stories that are set in REALITY.
Although to tell the truth, I have used bisexual shapeshifters to solve this problem. My favorite OC is one.
...What's your fandom? Is it, like, Left Hand of Darkness fandom? Because if that has a fandom I want to be in it.

[cordelia-gray.livejournal.com]

I have been lamenting the lack of a Left Hand of Darkness fandom for ages. Although apropos of the Dorothy Sayers quote above, I know that LeGuin was criticised for making the characters sound too "masculine" in their neuter state. Which I think may be a case of male reviewers/critics failing to notice that women do actually talk very much like human beings when left alone.

[demiincarnate.livejournal.com]

Let's make a fandom! Somebody go get gethenian to come too and we can start one.
Haha, what kind of a criticism is that? Maybe people were taking issue with the fact that all of the politician characters talked like politicians.

[gethenian.livejournal.com]

There is a certain validity to that line of criticism in that the LEAD characters were never seen in more "feminine" roles. They are politicians, spiritual leaders, the "king," and all referred to using masculine pronouns -- Genly's choice, which he explains very well, in my opinion.

I did read that Le Guin always regretted that she never got to write the lead characters in that book in the parts of their lives that were less traditionally masculine. I recall specifically that she said something about wishing she had had good reason to show Estraven as a mother with Arek (I am unsure why she chose to use that word, since Estraven was the biological FATHER of both of his children with Arek, but I suppose she just meant having a nurturing role in their upbringing). But then there are her two short stories set on Gethen -- in one, the Gethenians are all referred to as SHE, and that story I recall was actually written before the novel. In the other, they revert to the male pronoun for all persons, but it tells the story of an adolescent Karhider experiencing their first kemmer -- as female. "His" first sexual experiences are as a woman, with other women. I particularly like that story. It does very well to show the complete equality with which Karhiders (I don't recall if Orgoreyn sexual practices are discussed at all) regard any conceivable kind of sex, from homosexual couplings to orgies and there is reference made to the free practice of more creative approaches.

[gethenian.livejournal.com]

WHY HELLO THERE.

LHoD has a fandom. To the best of my knowledge, it consists of me and the voices in my head.

[cordelia-gray.livejournal.com]

Can I be one of the voices in your head?

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

...Facepalm.

Of course they're human experiences. But men and women are socialized differently in our culture - this is undeniable. As a result, they tend toward slightly different experiences, and these experiences colour their outlooks on life, and consequently the way they think.

[thene]

As a result, they tend toward slightly different experiences, and these experiences colour their outlooks on life, and consequently the way they think.

[citation needed]

Srsly; the differences among men and women are far greater than the differences between men and women. There is such huge variety of experience, and outlook, and thoughts, in the human race that claiming that men and women are 'different' is totally obscuring the forest for the trees. Women have vastly differing public lives and vastly differing inner lives so saying that there's some sense in which men are just 'different' from women and therefore it's okay to only write male protagonists is reductionist in the extreme.

I also want to know what you mean by 'our' culture. Again, you are assuming way less variety than there really is in terms of gender roles and gender socialisation. I am an immigrant and the place I live in currently is far more stringent about gender than the place where I last lived.

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

Okay, okay, I was in the midst of editing my comment for clarity, but you responded first. Everything you're telling me here is something I already know, and your condescending tone is very irritating. Pretending that I am unaware of the fact that gender roles are different in different societies and that the differences between men and women are less than those between men and men and women and women is simply being obtuse.

so saying that there's some sense in which men are just 'different' from women and therefore it's okay to only write male protagonists is reductionist in the extreme

It is a good thing I said absolutely nothing remotely like that!

Anyway, here you go:

EDIT to add that, like the woman in your quote, I am consistently praised by my male readership by how realistically I portray their gender. Obviously, this is accomplished by thinking of them as humans first, with the same needs and desires as any other human, but also the different expectations our culture has of them and how this affects their development, whether they choose to accept cultural norms or reject them outright.

You might be barking up the wrong tree here - you're talking to a feminist who believes the natural differences between men and women are so minimal as to be negligible, or broad useless stereotypes (I'm better at maths and sciences than the arts, I'm excellent at discerning visual/spatial relationships, I prefer action to romance, I like FPSs more than RPGs, football more than figure skating, cars more than clothes - and I believe this makes me a perfectly normal woman) but there is absolutely no question that our culture discriminates, and this leads men and women to have different experiences.

For example: my brother and I both bought Half-life 2 when it first came out. We both love the game - here is an example of a man and woman being, at their core, exactly the same. But when I walked into the EB to buy it, the man behind the counter asked me condescendingly if I was sure that what I wanted it and when I said yes, told me that my "boyfriend" would love it. When my brother bought it, he said only "really great game, huh?".

Different experiences. They colour our outlooks. This is important to bear in mind as a writer.

[thene]

So basically what you're saying is that female characters are so different from male characters that you find it 'easier' to write about men because you feel they're more 'familiar' to you, but all the differences between men and women are caused by women's experiences of patriarchy? That makes no sense in the context of speculative fiction, because many of our canons are about cultures that have less sexism or supposedly no sexism, or just different sexism to the cultures of the real world. In OF, you don't have to write about patriarchy if you don't want to. So how does it make sense to define 'familiarity' with a protagonist's gender solely on the experiences you're assuming women have under IRL patriarchy?

And yeah, I get ticked off when I see someone use the phrase 'our culture', singular, because it's a huge assumption and often not a valid one.

[demiincarnate.livejournal.com]

Thank you for agreeing with me! It's frankly sexist to claim a man's life and a woman's life are the same.

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

Hah hah, as a feminist it's my goal to make them as similar as possible, but denying that in the real world societies discriminate is not only ignorant, it's harmful to the cause of equality :/

Plus, barring some biotechnological breakthrough, there's the basic biology to worry about. Much of the so-called "hardwired" brain differences are socialization, bunk, and humbug, but female still get pregnant, get periods, etc., and men get prostate cancer and erectile dysfunction. You want to write about a character who's had an abortion? Guess what! You're going to have to write about a person who is, at least biologically, female.

Our collective humanity it undeniable, but to deny the sexism present in our society is to deny everything feminism has accomplished :/ And to deny males their own unique experiences as a result of this sexism as well.

[demiincarnate.livejournal.com]

Exactly what I was trying to say, except way more eloquent and thorough! You are one smart cookie.