fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1509 ]

[ SECRET POST #1509 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1509 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 16 pages, 376 secrets from Secret Submission Post #216.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Snape was obsessed. That's not romantic and that's not love.

Your assessment of Petunia paints her as a victim of Dumbledore, yet she's worse than Snape?

Classic example of how male characters can do no wrong, but female ones only do wrong. And for the record, Snape is my favorite character. I'm just not one of the fans who ignores his many, many flaws.

He did love her. It wasn't just that he was creepily obsessed right off the bat. He loved her first. It definitely became an obsession after she died but there was love there too. I never said it was romantic.

She's her own victim. She was afraid of magic because she treated her sister like shit and never took time to learn about the magical world. If she hadn't been so jealous, her feelings towards magic would have probably been different and maybe she wouldn't have been afraid. She definitely wouldn't have went on speaking ill of her sister and brother-in-law and may have actually treated Harry properly.

I'm not ignoring any of his flaws and I'm definitely not saying he's a good guy because that's just stupid. I'm just attempting to put his and Petunia's behavior towards Harry into perspective. If you consider both their upbringings and how they were treated by/felt towards James and Lily, you get a much clearer picture of them both.

DA, but you could also argue that Snape was "his own victim" too for a) calling Lily a mudblood and estranging her in the first place, and b) ratting her whole family out to Voldemort and getting her killed in the process.

His whole, "I am a grieving grieverson who grieves because my plan to have my lady love's husband and child killed by an evil wizard, who hates muggle-borns, so that I can end up with her, I guess, somehow managed to back fire on me and get her killed, too. Woe is me," thing isn't a "good" motivation either.

Between Snape and Petunia, they both treated Harry like total crap, and they both played a part in saving his life. Snape just gets a pass because he a) has more character time, and b) gets to do the tragic anti-hero thing.

That could definitely be argued but Snape was also a victim of his circumstances outside of his relationship with Lily. His broken home life, the fact that he's in Slytherin, where's he's supposed to be accepted, and surrounded by all these pure-blood, old-money wizards who shun him for dressing raggedy and being poor, being tortured by James simply for being and then having Lily, his only friend and the girl he had deep feelings for, start to date the boy who terrorized him and suddenly start saying stuff akin to "he's not as bad as he seems." Snape shouldn't have called her that but he lashed out in anger and feelings of betrayal.

Snape told Voldemort the prophecy but IDK (cuz I can't remember) if he actually sent Voldemort to their house. What I do remember is that it was between the Potters and the Longbottoms and the Potters, being more visible, were the ones that Voldy went after. I could be wrong though.

I dunno. I rather think considering their upbringing tends to reinforce the OP's point. I don't think Petunia's jealousy is a trivial motive - I think it's a deeply tragic part of her formative years. Her sister got to go and live in a magical world to which Petunia could never have access - even though she wrote and begged to be let in. In one fell swoop she learns magic is real, learns she's debarred from it, and loses the common ground of shared experience with her sister. That's heartbreaking. Then, even when Lily is home, she brings the magic world with her by hanging out with Snape. Snape who rubs it in that Petunia's not like them, and who, along with her sister, pries into her private correspondence.

So Lily and Severus go off to learn magic and live in an enchanted castle, while Petunia grows up as a girl in Northern England in the 70s. At some point before Lily's death, both their parents die too. Maybe she ought to have magnanimously just been happy for her sister, but if we can feel compassion for Snape's unhappy childhood, surely we can cut young Petunia some slack for being hurt and bitter. And before she and Lily ever have a chance to reconcile, her sister is murdered in the magical world. And how does she learn of her sister's death? A note and a baby left on her doorstep, further cementing the message that even in the death of her only sister she's an outsider.

After that, she acts badly. Petunia's treatment of Harry is reprehensible. But I don't think it's less understandable or forgivable than Snape's mistreatment of him. They both do the absolute bare minimum to ensure his survival, but do it nonetheless. They both play their roles according to Dumbledore's scheme. And I believe they both did it voluntarily, though grudgingly.

I don't buy that Petunia was solely motivated by fear of DD - as mentioned above, she didn't kick him out after DD's death. The howler DD sends her reminds her of the note which explained how the spell works and the risk to Harry's life if he leaves. There's no indication that that note contained any threats.

She was separated from her sister by magic, yes. But she also furthered that separation by her own actions. And yes, I can feel sorry for her and what she had to go through but Harry was a baby and it wasn't his fault. He didn't deserve child abuse (which it can be argued that her actions were). Snape was a shit teacher to Harry but it can hardly be said that he abused him. And I wouldn't call putting his own life in constant danger and dying for Harry "the bare minimum."

I already pointed out that the guilt that someone incites in you, if it is deep enough, doesn't just go away after they die. It was fear of the magical world but it was also mostly deep guilt. Dumbledore didn't actually make threats against her life or family; that's not really what I meant when I said she feared him. I was mostly referring to fear of the magical.

Uh...Snape was pretty obviously a bully to Harry.

You know what they call it when adults bully kids?

Child abuse.

I never said he wasn't a bully but being a petty asshole to a kid is not child abuse. Not feeding them, barely clothing them, psychologically scarring then, and beating/allowing someone to beat them is.

Uh, Snape was pretty obviously psychologically and emotionally abusive not just towards Harry (although he and his close friends got the worst of it), but also to tons of other students. He was in a position of power and used that to make their lives miserable.

What about (as an example that first pops to mind because someone used it up-thread) him not letting Hermione go to the nurse when her teeth were growing too large to fit in her mouth, and not only neglecting her but also insulting her, isn't abusive?

Snape is a child-abuser. The only reason Harry got it worse from Petunia was because he was around her more frequently then he was around Snape. There's no part of me that believes Snape would have treated Harry exactly the same way if he had been in Petunia's place (...somehow...).

I haven't been making commentary on Snape's actions outside of his actions towards Harry and I'd most likely agree with you if I were.

Still, people keep saying that they don't think Snape would have treated Harry better. I'm just not too quick to make that call. I can't help feeling like raising a child from infancy, the child of your late sister, should make a person act better, not worse. Seriously, it's not like Harry was 10 and an awful kid when he came to the Durseleys. He was a baby and they still managed to treat him like they did. Something about the fact that Harry was an infant just makes me less inclined to cut them some slack.

...Snape was a-okay with having Voldemort kill Harry. At the very fucking least, Petunia didn't try to have a baby killed. Just sayin.

Also, it's not like Harry was a raging dick when Snape met him. Harry didn't deserve Snape's treatment any more than he deserved the Dursley's. From the very second that Snape was in a position of power over Harry, he used that to torment him.

What a saint!

This is very true. Although I'm sure someone could argue that Petunia wouldn't have taken Harry in if Dumbledore was just like "Harry's an orphan. Will you take care of him?"

I'm not saying he's a saint. I guess I'm just weighing it differently. Like, if you're gonna engage in a debate about which abuse was worse, being awful to someone who looks like someone who used to torment you weighs less heavily than being awful to your infant nephew.

They're both really awful people. It's just hard to argue for the lesser of two evils without looking like you're trying to sanctify one and damn the other. And it seems like I'm really failing at it.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2011-02-20 00:17 (UTC) - Expand

It's not one or the other, you know. A teacher being a "petty asshole" to a student can be abuse.

An adult in a position of power over children and ABUSING that power (playing favorites or saying hurtful, downright insulting things knowing they can silence those children should they wish to defend themselves) is ABUSING those children and therefore Child Abuse.

Say awful, hurtful things to children in order to make them upset. Threatening to kill their pets. This is emotional abuse.

Just because there is no physical harm doesn't mean there isn't damage.

When I read the books, I saw all that stuff with Snape and other kids and thought Snape was a giant douche but I never felt an outrage on Harry's behalf. IDK why. The books just gave me the impression that Harry never felt Snape's barbs in any way beyond "wow he's a dick. What's his problem?" (except for the ones about James in the first books.)

Harry being affected? Perhaps not, but he was used to abuse as you say. Hermione bursting into tears because of him? Yes.

Neville, who had his parents tortured to insanity, developing a fear of him that eclipses all other? And for good reason? Yeah. Threatening to kill his pet, and it being obvious that's exactly what Snape wanted? Kinda goes past "what a dick".

Yes I agreed with you. That's why I said that I felt more outrage on the part of the other children but not on Harry's. We are definitely on the same page with that.

(no subject)

stormseye.livejournal.com - 2011-02-20 00:16 (UTC) - Expand

Different anon here. I wonder if that's partially because of the circumstances though. Like when Harry is with the Dursleys, he has literally no one else. But once he goes to Hogwarts, he's suddenly surrounded by people who are like him; he has good friends for the first time in his life, and people admire and look up to him just because of who he is. Basically, the books are really deeply entrenched in Harry's POV and when we see him with the Dursleys he's totally miserable, but when he's at Hogwarts he hates and distrusts Snape (as Snape has given him every reason to) but as a result of circumstances totally beyond Snape's control, he is generally pretty happy. I don't doubt that had Snape had been in charge of Harry's upbringing he wouldn't have been equally shitty to Harry, but YMMV on that. I don't even know why I'm here. I have no dog in this fight.

I'm not sure what you're responding to but I generally agree with what you said.

Yeah, that whole occlumency scene where he brutally tears into Harry's memories and psyche in the guise of "lessons" - that's not abusive at all. And that's one example only.

To be fair, it's not like Voldemort was gonna be like "Oh Harry, am I going too fast for you?" Snape wasn't teaching him Occlumency for fun; he was teaching him how to keep Voldemort out of his head. Yes, he got sick satisfaction from it but that doesn't change the fact that it was somewhat necessary, especially since the bond between Voldemort and Harry's minds was proven to be extremely strong.

Snape wasn't teaching him Occlumency at all.

I mean, he was meant to be. But he really wasn't.

(no subject)

wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com - 2011-02-20 00:29 (UTC) - Expand

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moon-very-thin.livejournal.com - 2011-02-20 00:54 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2011-02-20 00:56 (UTC) - Expand

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wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com - 2011-02-20 00:59 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2011-02-20 01:41 (UTC) - Expand

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wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com - 2011-02-20 01:42 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2011-02-20 02:33 (UTC) - Expand

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wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com - 2011-02-20 08:10 (UTC) - Expand

It wasn't just that he was creepily obsessed right off the bat. He loved her first. It definitely became an obsession after she died but there was love there too.

...er, I would say that plotting to have her husband and infant son murdered so that he could hook up with her and be all ~happily ever after~ with a woman who basically disowned him after he was completely horrible to her is a pretty big sign that the creepy obsession began well before Lily died.

Just saying. Not gonna fight the "I don't think it was just jealousy with Petunia" fight, as others have done that much more eloquently than I would, but... figured I'd bring that up.

er, I would say that plotting to have her husband and infant son murdered so that he could hook up with her and be all ~happily ever after~

What book did you read?

I pretty much agree with all of this, except I think Snape's love for Lily started out well-meaning, then unraveled around the time he started hanging around the Death Eaters. I was just about to point out that double standard between perceptions of male and female characters, but I was pleased to see that most people in this thread found fault in both of them. However, I think the pass, or understanding, on Snape's part can be more attributed to what the DA said in that he's a much more prominent character and had more to analyze/justify.

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