[ SECRET POST #1509 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1509 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 16 pages, 376 secrets from Secret Submission Post #216.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

They're both awful people but I think Petunia would be considered worse (in regards to Harry) because she treated him like shit because she was jealous that her sister got all the attention for being magical. She hated Lily for that and she hated James and, by virtue of him being their son, she hated Harry too. The way I see it, she kept him because Dumbledore made her. She would have thrown him out in the later books if not for that owl from Dumbledore reminding her of the promise she made to him. If she'd thought he'd forgotten about that, she would have let Vernon toss Harry out on his ass.

Petunia's "care" of Harry (if you even wanna call not giving him a proper bed, barely feeding him, and letting him be physically abused by your husband and son "care") was born out of a promise to Dumbledore that she was afraid to break because she feared the magical world and felt guilty. Her own nephew and she treated Harry terribly. Lily never treated her badly or gave any reason for Petunia to hate her other than having magic and marrying James (who Petunia didn't even know) and those aren't proper reasons. Harry wasn't even a bad kid or a rebel or anything. He was just a normal kid and he didn't warrant the treatment he got.

Snape looked out for Harry because he loved Lily and was grieving her loss. He hated Harry because he was James' son (the man responsible for making his teenage years absolutely miserable and the man who he saw as stealing away a childhood friend, probably his best friend). But he took care of him because he loved Lily. He didn't have to worship the ground Harry walked on or dote on him and treat him specially; every time he looked at Harry, he saw James, someone who tortured him simply for existing. He puts his life in constant danger and then gives it up in the end just to keep Harry alive.

Petunia acted out of guilt and fear. Snape out of love and grief. Snape was an awful person in all other regards but when it comes to the treatment of Harry, I'd say he's the one more deserving of any possible forgiveness.

[(Anonymous)]

If Dumbledore was the only reason Petunia was taking care of Harry, then she would have thrown him out the second Dumbledore died. But she didn't. She continued to take care of him after Dumbledore's death. She should've done a better job of it, but she still kept him.

Snape didn't need to give Harry special treatment - he just needed to treat him like a normal student. But he deliberately made his life miserable solely because of who his father was. Harry was never the bully that James was, but Snape couldn't have cared less. He protected Harry at the end of the day, but he kicked and screamed along the way as much as Petunia did.

And Lily never gave Snape a reason to treat her the way he did either. He didn't have to lose her. She stood by him until he started getting into that whole "Mudblood" idea. She would've stood by Petunia as well, but Petunia pushed her away before she could.

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

Dumbledore guilted her into it. I'm not saying he threatened to beat her or something. And if someone makes you feel guilty enough, that guilt will continue even if they're dead.

And I'm not saying that Snape's treatment of Harry should completed be ignored. Obviously not. He acted towards Harry the same way James acted towards him; he was awful to him simply for existing. The only difference is that, although Harry didn't actually do anything, he reminded Snape of James, who made his teenage years miserable and "stole his girl" (in Snape's mind, not my own). Looking at Harry and knowing that he's James' son with Lily probably ripped out his heart every single time. So he "kicked and screamed" and he gave Harry a hard time in school and failed him on stuff and took points from Gryffindor. Petunia committed child abuse. And she let her husband and son abuse Harry too. And not just psychologically; both Vernon and Dudley were physically violent towards Harry.

No, Snape didn't have to lose Lily. And yes, he was a giant dick for treating her the way he did. But people lash out in anger and when they feel betrayed. Seeing her Lily dating Jame was the ultimate betrayal to Snape because Lily knew how James treated Snape. He was deeply hurt by that. And he drifted into a bad crowd. If you've ever known someone who had a very rough upbringing and very few friends, you'll understand how an event like that in your life can hurt so much worse than it might for someone else. Petunia still had her family that loved her. Snape was already intensely alone. Again, not excusing his behavior cuz it was still shitty behavior. But just putting it in perspective.

[(Anonymous)]

Uhm... Dumbledore also guilted Snape into watching over Harry. A lot. Repeatedly. To the point where it seemed kind of fucked up and vindictive yet justifiable yet still manipulative as hell. Seriously, it's not like Snape found out that Lily and James were killed and Harry survived and took it upon himself to protect Harry. Really, maybe you need to re-read the books, kiddo.

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

While I don't at all appreciate your condescension and your assumption that I'm a child, I'll respond to you anyway. I personally weigh actions done out of love and guilt heavier than those done out of simple guilt. But that's just me.

[(Anonymous)]

I personally weigh actions done out of love and guilt heavier than those done out of simple guilt. But that's just me.

Which makes your argument irrelevant, then, because there is no love for Harry in this equation. There is, however, arguably just as much "love" for Lily in Petunia as there is in Snape. Both treated her exceptionally poorly based on their decisions to give in to jealousy and insecurity, and beyond that, Snape's affection for Lily was neither romantic nor loving - it was sick and obsessed. He was more than happy to have Voldemort off James AND Harry in exchange for "getting" Lily afterwards. When that didn't work out, it was Dumbledore's suggestions that even pulled enough guilt from Snape to do as he promised in the first place.

[(Anonymous)]

(This is the anon from before, by the way, the one who didn't call you a kid.)

But Snape did abuse Harry. It wasn't anything physical, possibly because he wasn't in charge of Harry's physical care, but he did emotionally abuse him. Imo, that's just as bad.

And Lily didn't date James until after she and Snape had fallen out. Up until then, she was standing by him and refusing to give James a chance. We never even saw Petunia's upbringing very closely. We don't even know if her parents loved her. And even if they did, I don't think Snape should get a free pass just because he had a worse childhood than her.

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

I'm not giving him a free pass. That's not my intention. I'm just trying to remind people that the damage done in childhood matters in adulthood. While Petunia did suffer because she wanted to go to Hogwarts and couldn't and felt alienated from her sister because of it, I don't think that's a real cause for her behavior towards Harry. Yes, she was a child for it and we don't see her whole upbringing but I think that JK would have put it in the books if she were abused/treated badly as a child; she did it will all her other characters for whom it was important and relevant information.

[(Anonymous)]

JK left out a lot of important things that she only clarifies in interviews, so I wouldn't be surprised. But even if Petunia wasn't abused, I still don't think Snape should get any more forgiveness than her. Harry was abused, but he didn't end up being mean to people for absolutely no reason.

[(Anonymous)]

Snape was obsessed. That's not romantic and that's not love.

Your assessment of Petunia paints her as a victim of Dumbledore, yet she's worse than Snape?

Classic example of how male characters can do no wrong, but female ones only do wrong. And for the record, Snape is my favorite character. I'm just not one of the fans who ignores his many, many flaws.

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

He did love her. It wasn't just that he was creepily obsessed right off the bat. He loved her first. It definitely became an obsession after she died but there was love there too. I never said it was romantic.

She's her own victim. She was afraid of magic because she treated her sister like shit and never took time to learn about the magical world. If she hadn't been so jealous, her feelings towards magic would have probably been different and maybe she wouldn't have been afraid. She definitely wouldn't have went on speaking ill of her sister and brother-in-law and may have actually treated Harry properly.

I'm not ignoring any of his flaws and I'm definitely not saying he's a good guy because that's just stupid. I'm just attempting to put his and Petunia's behavior towards Harry into perspective. If you consider both their upbringings and how they were treated by/felt towards James and Lily, you get a much clearer picture of them both.

[(Anonymous)]

DA, but you could also argue that Snape was "his own victim" too for a) calling Lily a mudblood and estranging her in the first place, and b) ratting her whole family out to Voldemort and getting her killed in the process.

His whole, "I am a grieving grieverson who grieves because my plan to have my lady love's husband and child killed by an evil wizard, who hates muggle-borns, so that I can end up with her, I guess, somehow managed to back fire on me and get her killed, too. Woe is me," thing isn't a "good" motivation either.

Between Snape and Petunia, they both treated Harry like total crap, and they both played a part in saving his life. Snape just gets a pass because he a) has more character time, and b) gets to do the tragic anti-hero thing.

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

That could definitely be argued but Snape was also a victim of his circumstances outside of his relationship with Lily. His broken home life, the fact that he's in Slytherin, where's he's supposed to be accepted, and surrounded by all these pure-blood, old-money wizards who shun him for dressing raggedy and being poor, being tortured by James simply for being and then having Lily, his only friend and the girl he had deep feelings for, start to date the boy who terrorized him and suddenly start saying stuff akin to "he's not as bad as he seems." Snape shouldn't have called her that but he lashed out in anger and feelings of betrayal.

Snape told Voldemort the prophecy but IDK (cuz I can't remember) if he actually sent Voldemort to their house. What I do remember is that it was between the Potters and the Longbottoms and the Potters, being more visible, were the ones that Voldy went after. I could be wrong though.

[cobryn-moy.livejournal.com]

I dunno. I rather think considering their upbringing tends to reinforce the OP's point. I don't think Petunia's jealousy is a trivial motive - I think it's a deeply tragic part of her formative years. Her sister got to go and live in a magical world to which Petunia could never have access - even though she wrote and begged to be let in. In one fell swoop she learns magic is real, learns she's debarred from it, and loses the common ground of shared experience with her sister. That's heartbreaking. Then, even when Lily is home, she brings the magic world with her by hanging out with Snape. Snape who rubs it in that Petunia's not like them, and who, along with her sister, pries into her private correspondence.

So Lily and Severus go off to learn magic and live in an enchanted castle, while Petunia grows up as a girl in Northern England in the 70s. At some point before Lily's death, both their parents die too. Maybe she ought to have magnanimously just been happy for her sister, but if we can feel compassion for Snape's unhappy childhood, surely we can cut young Petunia some slack for being hurt and bitter. And before she and Lily ever have a chance to reconcile, her sister is murdered in the magical world. And how does she learn of her sister's death? A note and a baby left on her doorstep, further cementing the message that even in the death of her only sister she's an outsider.

After that, she acts badly. Petunia's treatment of Harry is reprehensible. But I don't think it's less understandable or forgivable than Snape's mistreatment of him. They both do the absolute bare minimum to ensure his survival, but do it nonetheless. They both play their roles according to Dumbledore's scheme. And I believe they both did it voluntarily, though grudgingly.

I don't buy that Petunia was solely motivated by fear of DD - as mentioned above, she didn't kick him out after DD's death. The howler DD sends her reminds her of the note which explained how the spell works and the risk to Harry's life if he leaves. There's no indication that that note contained any threats.

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

She was separated from her sister by magic, yes. But she also furthered that separation by her own actions. And yes, I can feel sorry for her and what she had to go through but Harry was a baby and it wasn't his fault. He didn't deserve child abuse (which it can be argued that her actions were). Snape was a shit teacher to Harry but it can hardly be said that he abused him. And I wouldn't call putting his own life in constant danger and dying for Harry "the bare minimum."

I already pointed out that the guilt that someone incites in you, if it is deep enough, doesn't just go away after they die. It was fear of the magical world but it was also mostly deep guilt. Dumbledore didn't actually make threats against her life or family; that's not really what I meant when I said she feared him. I was mostly referring to fear of the magical.

[(Anonymous)]

Uh...Snape was pretty obviously a bully to Harry.

You know what they call it when adults bully kids?

Child abuse.

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

It wasn't just that he was creepily obsessed right off the bat. He loved her first. It definitely became an obsession after she died but there was love there too.

...er, I would say that plotting to have her husband and infant son murdered so that he could hook up with her and be all ~happily ever after~ with a woman who basically disowned him after he was completely horrible to her is a pretty big sign that the creepy obsession began well before Lily died.

Just saying. Not gonna fight the "I don't think it was just jealousy with Petunia" fight, as others have done that much more eloquently than I would, but... figured I'd bring that up.

[rainaweather.livejournal.com]

er, I would say that plotting to have her husband and infant son murdered so that he could hook up with her and be all ~happily ever after~

What book did you read?

[angary.livejournal.com]

I pretty much agree with all of this, except I think Snape's love for Lily started out well-meaning, then unraveled around the time he started hanging around the Death Eaters. I was just about to point out that double standard between perceptions of male and female characters, but I was pleased to see that most people in this thread found fault in both of them. However, I think the pass, or understanding, on Snape's part can be more attributed to what the DA said in that he's a much more prominent character and had more to analyze/justify.

[meadowphoenix]

Something inherently bothers me about your comment.

I will leaving aside their motivations because I see them both jealousy and revenge-fueled. I pretty sure Petunia's internal torment about magic was to her as hurtful as Snape's physical torment form the Marauders. I call them equal because Snape always had the chance and often did fight back, while there was absolutely nothing Petunia could do about her situation (not to mention that Snape gleefully threw it back in her face, and also harmed her in a way she certainly felt was deliberate. I'm pretty sure Petunia felt Snape's contempt for her magiclessness.)

You respond as if Snape would have tried to save Harry, I'm not sure why you put that he cared for him, without Dumbledore's interference. I disagree. He certainly wasn't thinking of Harry when he begged Dumbledore to save Lily. HE wouldn't have thought about it at all, if Dumbledore hadn't given him the idea that it was the only way to appease his wrongs. Also, he was also doing it out of guilt, since he told Voldemort the prophecy. Nor did he put himself in constant danger for Harry, nor did he frequently go out of his way to help Harry. He was perfectly fine letting Harry be in danger by not making more of an effort to help him in Occlumency, which Dumbledore had to force him into, and he seemed to have used those lessons as ways to legitimately harm him. He saved Harry 1.5 times: once in first year, and the half-point for presumably being the one to tell the Order about the DoM. That's the extent of his aid. Giving Harry the sword wasn't really trying to save him at all.

If Snape had Harry full-time like Petunia did, I would have a hard time thinking that he would have treated Harry any better.

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

I call them equal because Snape always had the chance and often did fight back, while there was absolutely nothing Petunia could do about her situation (not to mention that Snape gleefully threw it back in her face, and also harmed her in a way she certainly felt was deliberate. I'm pretty sure Petunia felt Snape's contempt for her magiclessness.)

Then I'd say her contempt for Snape would be justified. But towards James? And towards Harry? I can't see a justification for that.

If I said that Snape cared for Harry, I meant strictly in a guardian/looking-after sense, not in an emotional or loving sense. I also put in another comment that his actions were partially out of guilt as well. I just didn't put that in my first comment cuz I was on a different train of thought at the time.

And perhaps Snape's danger wasn't constant insofar as Voldemort wasn't really around for 10~ years but playing double agent for Dumbledore was an extremely high-risk thing. And to be fair, he DID try to help Harry with Occlumency. But Harry kept wanting to have those visions of Voldemort and he wasn't practicing. Yes, Snape was harsh with him and a dick to him during lessons but he can't get into Harry's head and force him to practice his Occlumency.

I think the fact that Snape didn't have Harry full-time like Petunia did makes her actions even worse. She had Harry from infancy. He grew up in her home, along with her son. And she let her feelings about her sister, magic, and James fester to the point that she let it allow Harry to be treated the way he was. I'd like to think that a person would act better than that in the fact of an innocent child, one that nearly died and was their own blood relation.

[(Anonymous)]

Then I'd say her contempt for Snape would be justified. But towards James? And towards Harry? I can't see a justification for that.

So why is it magically okay for Snape to hold bullshit against Harry? I can't see a justification for that.

And everything you say at the end could be said for Snape. He let his own jealousies and past failures fester to the point that he actively singled out Harry for abuse. I'd like to think that a person would act better towards an innocent child who nearly died and became an orphan due to Snape's own actions (which he was never sorry for, btw).

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

It's NOT OK. But if I had to weight one against the other, I'd say being mean to someone because they look just like someone else who tortured you when you were younger (which is a normal human reaction BTW) and who you see as the result of that person stealing your girl (however deluded that may be) is a little bit heavier than treating your own sister's son like crap for his whole life. But I guess this is just my brain.

[meadowphoenix]

You're saying that she would associate all of that with Snape or even blame Snape for all of that, and therefore her contempt for her would be justified. But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying she probably blamed magic. It seems to me that Petunia and Lily used to hang out together all the time and then they learned about Lily's magic, and suddenly Petunia's skulking in bushes alone. Snape seems to hate her because she has no magic. Snape initially seems to like Lily, because of magic. Dumbledore tells her that magic is inherent from birth, so if Lily is treated specially by her parents because she had magic, that means (to a kid anyway) that Petunia is not special. So she transferred her hate to a small boy much the way Snape transferred his. There isn't a justification for either.

I know what you meant when you said cared for. That's what I meant too.

I agree being a double agent was extremely high-risk. But he wasn't doing it for Harry's safety so it's not something you can take into account when your weighing his actions toward Harry. To be fair, neither of them tried, but we're not talking about Harry's inability to get it together, we're talking about Snape's. Yelling is not trying. Pounding relentlessly into someone's mind like a blunt object until they are on the ground and then making attacks on some kid's self-worth when said kid cannot stop said blunt object isn't even teaching. "Clear your mind" isn't really a method worthy of note.

How does Snape being incredibly mean to Harry on a part time basis make Petunia being mean on a full time basis worse? You're right in that Petunia let her emotions severely cloud her judgment. And so did Snape. And if you're going to make the argument that Snape had James staring him in the face on a daily basis, then you also have to agree that Snape had 10 years to get over it, while Petunia didn't. And here's really the extenuating circumstances that make them equal. We only see Petunia treat Harry this way, which is horrible in of itself. Snape treats other kids for whom he has none of the baggage he has with Harry, in a similar way. For Petunia, it is about her emotions. For Snape, it seems to be about him.

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

Pounding relentlessly into someone's mind like a blunt object until they are on the ground and then making attacks on some kid's self-worth when said kid cannot stop said blunt object isn't even teaching. "Clear your mind" isn't really a method worthy of note.

I don't really know how one would go about teaching something like that. It's like teaching someone to jump. And you can't even show them because it happens in your head. You can only really tell them what it's supposed to be like. And to be fair, Harry wasn't taking it seriously. He'd go back to his room and seek out the connection between him and Voldemort. Yes, it helped save Mr. Weasley but that doesn't change the fact that he wasn't serious about his Occlumency. The fact that Snape took pleasure in it makes him a giant dick and a jerk-off but saying "Clear your mind" is the only instruction I would think to give too.

Petunia has 10 years in the face of her nephew, who she raised from infancy, while Snape had ten years on his own with his guilt and his grief and his craziness. I'm not surprised he turned out the way he did or treated Harry like he did. Snape was always an emotional wreck that didn't know how to act around people. The fact that he treats almost everyone the way he does, while contemptible, is not surprising. He's a lot like a Scrooge figure, (if you'll excuse the term) socially retarded and, by extension, cruel because I doubt he remembers how to be any other way. The Death Eaters aren't exactly an affectionate bunch lol.