fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1522 ]

[ SECRET POST #1522 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1522 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

35. [SPOILER WARNING for Gnomeo and Juliette]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #217.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - hit/ship/spiration ], [ 1 - personal attack ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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I agree, I don't really understand why some feminists see things in such black-and-white terms. I really don't understand when they scream misogyny just because the word bitch is used. First of all, some people are bitches and second more often than not that term is used in reference to demons doing evil things not human women.

I also don't get when people are okay with men getting tortured, but not okay with women being tortured. It's a double standard and just ridiculous. And while I do agree that the fans can be harsh on the female actors on the show, I honestly think the male actors on the show are way more objectified than their female costars.

Because it is misogynistic. This doesn't mean that it's the end of the world and the biggest issue ever, but it is misogynistic, and there's no point pretending it is not.

Also, I doubt that as many people are fine with anyone being tortured as you think they are. Also, the double standard that men can somehow magically "take it" and women need to be protected? Is rooted in misogyny.

This is where I apparently differ with a lot of feminists. Misogyny is about more than "something bad is happening to that woman, there." It's a mindset about women in general, no matter what.

So Dean calls a (demon-possessed) woman who's trying to destroy everything a bitch. Does that mean he thinks all women are bitches? Does that mean it's being a woman (versus being out to destroy humankind or whatever) that fuels that statement? I don't think so. And if it's not that, I have a hard time calling it misogyny.

Unfortunate? Yes, perhaps. Born and bred from a hatred of women? No.

Then why use a gendered term if not for the fact that it being gendered is insulting? He could be calling them, idk, "tree trunks", and a term completely bereft of sexualisation and femininity, and for that very reason, it is not a swearword.

Call someone male feminine? Insult.
Call someone male a woman? Insult.
Call someone an animal? Insult.
Call someone a female animal? Insult.
Call someone by the name of an animal that's supposedly sexual overactive AND female?
Stronger insult.
There you go. It would not have the same impact if it weren't for the gender component AND the sexualisation. It wouldn't work as an insult.

So yes, it IS rooted in a culturally coded hatred for women.

Yes, and who wants characters to sound and act realistic, and to follow the (misogynistic) prejudices of the society they do live in?! That would just be insane!!

You're really slow, huh?

Awww... are you still missing some more moralistic junk shoved down your throat?

THE ONLY RIGHT WAY TO PORTRAY SEXISM AND RACISM AND EVERY OTHER ISM IS TO NOT PORTRAY IT AT ALL. who needs accuracy? if TV is everyone hugging and loving each other and never doing anything bad, surely real life will follow.

I like transgression and uneasiness in my entertainment. Guess i'll just surrender to the authorities next... The Morality Patrol is knockin'.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2011-03-04 22:41 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2011-03-04 22:54 (UTC) - Expand

Insulting women doesn't make characters magically realistic. Especially not characters living in a universe where demons and angels and bodyswap and a fuckton of other unrealistic things are real.

No, it doesn't make them magically realistic, but it helps set up a fuller character. And having a universe full of demons and angels is no excuse to turn a series in to a unicorn-farting-rainbows, cringe-inducing, self-righteous fest.

You think characters who live in a universe where demons and angels and bodyswap and a fuckton of other unrealistic things wouldn't swear. I'm not much of a cusser, but I'd be screaming "fucks", "shits", "cunts" and all the horrible language I know if I were in the Winchester's situation (especially last season with the apocalypse coming). I'm surprised the Winchesters have kept it so civilized. (well there's the ratings to consider, but whatevs).

^ listen to them

Honestly, I don't think Dean has any real thoughts behind the insults he uses. For many people, the word "bitch" for a woman is as bad as "bastard" for men. (Heck, I didn't even know that bitch was seen as such an offensive, sexist term until someone on LJ told me). It's just a bunch of insults to him.

I just have to point out here that it also works the other way. Calling someone who is female masculine is also an insult.

He uses a gender word because it's a female demon. Just like he uses a male gender insult for the angels.

What other term could he use? I'd call a guy a "dumb bastard" or a "stupid asshole" but you don't generally use those for women.

Using a "female" insult or a "male" insult doesn't have to mean anything more than you're insulting a female or a male. (It can, of course--someone could use "bitch" totally misogynistically, but a teenage boy called me a "lapdog" of my boyfriend and "lapdog" isn't a swearword, but how he meant it turned it into one.)

It's like using "estúpida" or "estúpido" in Spanish--you're just using the right insult for the person, that's all.

No, it's not a double standard. At all. Men are the ultimate privileged group. Women are still oppressed against, and victims have the moral high ground. If a man gets tortured, that's just too bad.

Learn to study pop culture before you speak.

Torture is never okay.

Learn to use common sense before you speak.

Torture isn't ok but uh....Supernatural doesn't actually torture people, you know that right? Its a TV show.

Then why isn't is okay to show a tortured woman?

(different anon)

(oh snap)

I'm staying out of the whole gendered portrayal of torture thing argument because I don't give a fuck....just thought you should know that whole "torture is NEVER okay!" thing doesn't really have much to do with the discussion. No one is saying its ok to torture people, dumbass.

(no subject)

ypsilon42.livejournal.com - 2011-03-05 00:12 (UTC) - Expand

So since you know it's not real, what's all the fuss about Dean calling someone a bitch?

I am a feminist. I believe women and men are equal and should be treated that way, which is why I don't expect preferential treatment when it comes to insults. I also believe that words have the power you give them, and I'm more likely to laugh in someone's face if the most inspired insult they have for me is "bitch" than to take offense. It's become a trend to see the tree and miss the forest, and I'm beginning to pity the people who think they stand for something while they actually are no better than those who burned books.

/2c

Oh, for fuck's sake.

I don't scream misogyny, personally (I'm not in Supernatural fandom, either,) but I have told one writer that I had a problem with how they wielded the word bitch in a fic. It's not so much the word but how it's being used that sometimes poses a problem for me. When it's coming from a character who wouldn't normally call a woman a bitch, when it could have easily been phrased differently and less offensively, when it's just simply sloppy, careless writing, yeah, I occasionally get aggravated by that.

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