fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1583 ]

[ SECRET POST #1583 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1583 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 83 secrets from Secret Submission Post #226.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - hit/ship/spiration ], [ 0 - omgiknowthem ], [ 0 - take it to comments ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

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It still irks me. And it irks me more that it's specifically made out that he finds her using a gun "sexy" and whatnot... if only because I just don't feel like that's something the Doctor would think/feel. I loathe, loathe Moffat's "sexualized Doctor" anyway, though. Romantic, fine, whatever, but sexual, no, I just can't.

It also isn't the only way River twists the characters and story. And can I list the number of different ways her magically knowing how to pilot the TARDIS better than the Doctor is obnoxious, ridiculous, stupid, and annoys the hell out of me? Because I seriously want to throw things at my computer screen every time she pulls that crap.

The thing is.. as someone pointed out above, you know, some people consider Rose a Mary Sue, but her relationship with the Doctor was developed, and she had clear and obvious flaws -- she wasn't perfect, she couldn't do everything! But oh, River Song... she is, in my opinion, a Sue. She can pilot the TARDIS better than the Doctor! She's an ace shot! She's so dangerous Daleks fear her! She can escape anything, manipulate anyone! She has a sonic screwdriver too (and the Doctor gave it to her)! Everyone likes her as soon as they meet her! She's got a "tragic" and mysterious past! Oh, and she's the Doctor's wife and constantly calls him "sweetie". All despite her abysmal and obnoxious personality. Yeah, I'd call that a Sue, IMO.

Edited 2011-05-05 00:53 (UTC)

To be fair, pretty much everyone who knows anything about TARDISes knows how to pilot them better than the Doctor does. The Doctor is a really amazingly terrible pilot. Canonically, and not just in New Who or the Moffat era.

Except we're given NO REASON why River Song should know more about TARDISes than the Doctor. She's not -- that we know -- a Time Lord. She's certainly got less experience with them than the Doctor. So it's INCREDIBLY annoying and obnoxious when she waltzes in with no explanation for why or how she knows any of this and does "better" than the Doctor.

According to the BBC (I can't remember the source, but it was something from a journal I think?), future!Amy is going to teach River how to fly the TARDIS. Which is another reason I'm voting for Amy being River's mother.

...that makes even less sense than the Doctor teaching her. And that takes effort. What the hell.

I don't want Amy to be River's mother, if only because I think it's silly, but idgaf as long as she's not actually the Doctor's wife or whatever.

Why does that make less sense? River just needs someone who knows how to fly the TARDIS to teach her. There's no reason that future!Amy can't have learnt how to fly it. And by that point, they will know more about the TARDIS (assuming it's quite a while away) and thus River will have picked up their future techniques.

I'm pro River being the Doctor's wife, but I'm more pro Massive Plot Twist. I think we expect her to marry the Doctor too much, so Moffat won't go for it.

It makes less sense because... um, Amy doesn't know how to pilot the TARDIS, and I highly doubt that the Doctor's going to a) up and decide that the way he's been flying it since the 60s just ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH ANYMORE and decide to do it "right" and b) proceed to teach Amy everything there is to know about TARDIS piloting so well that she is later able to remember enough to teach River Song exactly how to fly it AND how the Doctor used to fly it wrong ages ago, presumably without having the TARDIS actually there or anything. It just doesn't track, at all.

I'm anti-anything that involves River Song being on my screen, period, sooo... but I'm especially, incredibly anti-her being the Doctor's wife. Incredibly.

(no subject)

angelofcaffeine.livejournal.com - 2011-05-05 23:30 (UTC) - Expand

And can I list the number of different ways her magically knowing how to pilot the TARDIS better than the Doctor is obnoxious, ridiculous, stupid, and annoys the hell out of me? Because I seriously want to throw things at my computer screen every time she pulls that crap.

She learned it from a future Doctor...a Doctor that we can assume has learned more about the TARDIS over time. So it's not really that annoying. It's like someone from your future who you taught to drive going back in time to when you first started out and driving your new car perfectly. You taught them in the future so you can't really be mad at them for knowing.

Everyone likes her as soon as they meet her! She's got a "tragic" and mysterious past! Oh, and she's the Doctor's wife and constantly calls him "sweetie". All despite her abysmal and obnoxious personality. Yeah, I'd call that a Sue, IMO.

You just described the Doctor almost completely (except for the "Sweetie" and wife part).

It is really annoying, actually. Regardless of what he may or may not have taught her in the future, the fact that she uses it the way she does -- in a ridiculously obnoxious fashion -- in the present is annoying as hell. I think I'm allowed to be annoyed by things even if there's an explanation for them, especially as explanation =/= excuse.

You just described the Doctor almost completely (except for the "Sweetie" and wife part).

Not everyone likes the Doctor as soon as they meet him, and he doesn't hold shit over our (the viewers') heads like she does. And, um, he doesn't have an obnoxious and horrible personality. Also, you skipped all the exclusive-to-River horrible and annoying stuff I also mentioned.

Also, IMO, judging a companion the same way one judges the Doctor in terms of Sue-dom is a flawed method. The Doctor is kind of a Sue -- he's the main character, he kind of has to be, and he's developed in a certain way over decades. Companions have to be judged on a different level -- in particular, how they relate to the Doctor and the story at large. Hence, the Doctor isn't a Sue for having these traits because he's the Doctor (and before anyone says it, I mean the character's role in the story, not because he's a man and River's not or some shit). However, some strange new character coming out of effing nowhere with all those superpowered traits, that the story immediately wraps around, who has the love adoration and attention of the current cast right away, whom we're treated as though we should automatically enjoy and love with no reason to do so? Yeah, that's a Sue.

Edited 2011-05-05 01:08 (UTC)

I think I'm allowed to be annoyed by things even if there's an explanation for them, especially as explanation =/= excuse.

Well you can be annoyed at her being obnoxious. But the fact that she has the knowledge isn't really a reason to dislike her since the Doctor taught her. It's a legitimate reason for her knowing lol.

Companions have to be judged on a different level -- in particular, how they relate to the Doctor and the story at large.

We don't know River's story. Hence the frustration. As I've said before, we're seeing her the way everyone does when they first meet him. Only difference is that we literally can't know more until the Doctor learns more and she can't just tell him because it's his future too. So how she got all the traits and the badassery is something we have to wait to find out. She's only called a Sue because we don't know her well yet. If it turns out that there's nothing legit in her future to account for everything we've seen, then the title of Sue will be a reasonable one to assign.

IDK being annoyed and frustrated I can understand. Slapping on the label of Sue before the story is over just boggles my mind.

Frankly, I'm not content to play the game of "sit around and wait to see if maybe Moffat decides to give some kind of a reasoning for any of this bullshit before I allow myself to make even the smallest of judgments about the character." I find her obnoxious and Sue-ish now, and Moffat has had an entire season and a half (counting SitL/FoD and the current season as roughly "half" here) to let me know why I shouldn't think she's an obnoxious, awful Sue with no redeeming features, and he hasn't managed or bothered to do so.

If it turns out later there's some justification for some of her bullshit... then I'll have been wrong about that, but that doesn't mean she hasn't been obnoxious and Sue-ish at this point in the story. It's still Sue-ish if there's an explanation, because at this time, there isn't one. And the obnoxiousness isn't going away anytime soon.

Dang it's like you just popped out of a time machine from 2008. Your sexist double standards are gross.

(no subject)

curseangel.livejournal.com - 2011-05-05 01:32 (UTC) - Expand

I find her obnoxious and Sue-ish now, and Moffat has had an entire season and a half (counting SitL/FoD and the current season as roughly "half" here) to let me know why I shouldn't think she's an obnoxious, awful Sue with no redeeming features, and he hasn't managed or bothered to do so.

If he did that, it seems like he'd be jumping straight through his plot. The Doctor finds not knowing just as annoying and tedious as we do and I think that's the point.

I guess Sue is just a term that I withhold until the story is over. Obnoxious and annoying are ones that I have no problem with assigning. But I feel like I can't say a character is a Sue until I've seen all of them and the story is complete :/

(no subject)

curseangel.livejournal.com - 2011-05-05 01:42 (UTC) - Expand

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wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com - 2011-05-05 01:52 (UTC) - Expand

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curseangel.livejournal.com - 2011-05-05 01:57 (UTC) - Expand

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runonmoonlight.livejournal.com - 2011-05-05 17:53 (UTC) - Expand

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wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com - 2011-05-05 19:36 (UTC) - Expand

You just described the Doctor almost completely (except for the "Sweetie" and wife part).

First, 'Mary Sue' is a term that should be stricken from fandom because 99% of the time, it's just used as another way bash female characters. That being said, there will NEVER be a bigger 'Mary Sue' in DW than the Doctor himself.

...He's the main character, of course he's more awesome than anyone else.

I don't understand why, whenever an OC (which River is in this discussion) is accused of being a Mary-Sue, someone always runs in to say that the main character is a bigger Sue. The main character is meant to be special, the best thing ever just because he or she is the main character.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel about it. I don't get it when people say "well, the Doctor is a Sue, so you can't call anyone else a Sue!" ...except that, well, the Doctor is the main character. He doesn't get judged on the same level as the other characters by virtue of that fact alone. IDK.

That doesn't really make sense to me. The main character is allowed to be perfect just because they're the main character? But, any supporting characters can't be perfect otherwise they're annoying and Sueish? A perfect character is still annoying no matter where they rank in terms of importance. Having said that, I don't really see the Doctor, River, or Rose as Mary Sues.

Personally, I think it's more "the Doctor is allowed to have some Sue-like traits because a) he is the main character, and thus needs to have certain traits in order to drive the plot, b) he is a Time Lord, whereas other discussed characters are human, and c) he has established and grown these traits over an exceptionally long amount of time." The companions and other characters, however, are on a completely different level -- they're not on the same playing field, so to speak, so I don't feel like they can or should be judged the same as the Doctor.

I also don't really feel that the Doctor is a Sue, but I do believe that River Song exhibits Sue-like traits, most of which are because of the way she was introduced into the story and how she keeps coming into it. *shrug* It's a "to each his or her own" thing, I think.

(no subject)

21lights.livejournal.com - 2011-05-05 02:10 (UTC) - Expand

The main character is allowed to be perfect just because they're the main character?

No, no, only if they are men, women are always ~~bitches~~ Mary-Sues.

I'm not saying the Doctor can't be super special and awesome. I'm simply saying that he shouldn't get a pass simply because he's the main character. The Doctor shouldn't be praised for being clever or all-knowing while other characters are judged for those same things.

When people call River 'smug' or say that the writers wrote Rose as if she was 'a super-special snowflake' (which I strongly disagree with, btw) it's nothing compared to the way the Doctor is portrayed. This is why when any other character is called a 'Mary Sue' I need to point out that the Doctor exhibits those traits to the extreme and if we're judging in those terms, is the biggest 'Mary Sue' of them all. I don't think being the main character means those traits are more acceptable or that he should be judged with different standards than everyone around him.

Word. On all accounts lol.

First, 'Mary Sue' is a term that should be stricken from fandom because 99% of the time, it's just used as another way bash female characters.

I can't quite agree with this, but I do think that it should be used extremely sparingly when discussing canon characters. I do agree, though, that when used on canon characters it is overwhelmingly used on women who would not have been called that had they simply been male.

I'm afraid I've just read too many bad fanfic/rp character applications to dismiss the term entirely, though.

The problem is, very few people actually use it to describe characters they wish would have more flaws or be shown to fail from time to time. Most people I've seen use it in fandom do so when they simply don't like a female character.

Which is, of course, absurd. I don't even like to see it used as "this character should have more flaws/fail once in a while." I prefer to see it used as "this is not believable in this universe/this is in no way, shape, or form a person."

So, yes. Drastically overused.

...When the hell was she confirmed as his wife? Because, as far as I've seen, it's just fan theory. All we know is she's married, and is a Companion. She's not necessarily married to him.

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