Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2011-05-04 07:46 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2011-05-04 07:46 pm
[ SECRET POST #1583 ]
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 83 secrets from Secret Submission Post #226.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - hit/ship/spiration ], [ 0 - omgiknowthem ], [ 0 - take it to comments ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.
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(Anonymous) 2011-05-05 01:55 am (UTC)(link)The victim choice, the aftermath, the level of dehumanization, etc. You have no problem acknowledging this is worse. But I as a rape survivor I would say that all of that is part of the rape. The aftermath and recovery of rape is part of the brutality of the rape. It's not just physical wounds, the mental pain is a huge part of it and - yes, a rape is worse if you're expected to clean the boots of the person who raped you the next day, if you're aware of it AS the rape happens, and hey, maybe passed on to the rapist's friends with no realistic hope of stopping it. Like. Yes. Easily. :\
This is especially ridiculous when you consider the context of this fight, fictionalized erotica. I don't know about you but the situation surrounding porn is pretty freaking important to the person with a fetish. Otherwise it wouldn't be a fetish? So the situation surrounding the rape is of particular importance in this discussion because it's what's getting people off.
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(Anonymous) 2011-05-05 02:04 am (UTC)(link)Obviously rape isn't measured in the amount of physical pain it inflicts on the victim. It's entirely possible to orgasm from rape, but that doesn't make it not rape.
What makes it rape is a lack of consent. A lack of control.
So a free person still has a degree of acknowledged control of themselves, even though it is being violated in the attack.
A slave has less consent, a slave has a complete lack of control. Making it a more severe rape, because in a sense their rights are already being violated with their every breath. This is additional violation on top of what they're constantly put through.
To speak of rape in terms of pain and violence alone is simplifying it beyond belief.
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A free woman can seek medical attention. A slave can't.
If a free woman harms or kills her attacker trying to fight back, she has a slim chance at making her case before a judge/jury in a court of law. A slave has none.
A free woman might not be raped by her attacker again, but a slave almost certainly will.
There's just a whole lot of layers there. :-/
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During the act the violence and gravity of the crime is pretty much the same.
I will gladly agree that the context of the slave is different, that her life as a general might be more negatively impacted,that she will not be heard, that she might be raped again that she might indeed be forced to be around her attacker.(This latter might also be true for a free woman, by the way. How many girls are there that were raped by a family member, and are powerless to stop it, feel shamed to tell anyone, and still see the person on regular basis?)
Is the slave worse of in general? Of course
Is the slave owner perhaps an even bigger bastard than a regular rapist for preying on someone he *knows* can't fight back? Most likely.
Is the crime itself different/less bad? I'd ague no.
But you are, of course, free to very much disagree.
I just have a bit of a problem with saying "well, your rape was "better" because you're white and not a slave". Which is sort of what it comes down to.
And then we haven't even gotten to the point of: should we police people's kinks, even if they are objectively worse than ours are? Which was the point of the post, and frankly a bit of a can of worms....
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(Anonymous) 2011-05-05 05:05 pm (UTC)(link)You know by this logic a rape that isn't a violent attack isn't really rape at all. It didn't hurt, did it! Why are you complaining!! It was so much better than a violent rape!!
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(Anonymous) 2011-05-05 05:23 pm (UTC)(link)well, your rape was "better" because you're white and not a slave
YES. IT WOULD BE BETTER. Also your focus on the white woman pain - which was not present in the original scenario, it was just about slaves - is mindboggling. You don't have to "that one is better" just "THIS ONE IS WAY WORSE." This is not remotely hard.
A rape where a person was set on FIRE would be worse than a rape were someone wasn't, because the trauma experienced by the victim would be a different. A father raping his child would likely be WAY WORSE than a rape from a stranger, even if the exact amount of pain was experienced because it would impact the victim differently. I mean this is just logic.
It's incredibly fucking gross how you're trying to equalize all rapes because,
because you're white and not a slave".
Yes, it's ~super important~ to acknowledge that white people suffer. Of course they suffer. You just talked to a rape victim above who was just fine with acknowledging that rape as a slave would've been a WAY WORSE experience. That doesn't DEMEAN a rape where the person isn't a slave. The only way you could possibly think that is in this hypothetical discussion where you're crafting different victims in your mind and think it's really important that we acknowledge both of them equally. Victims don't go around wanting their rape to be the most important rape, and no other rape can be more traumatizing than theirs or it means that they didn't suffer.
You're using elementary-level logic to solve a very complex problem and it's boggling my mind.
A guy accidentally landing on a iPod is just the same as him getting raped! The pain is the same in the moment, isn't it!!
It's very clearly a completely different scenario, a different situation and different degrees of pain. EVERYTHING in the slave scenario is worse. "But the pain of the attack is the same :)" okay. That's so inconsequential it's almost off topic.
tw: rape, incest
(Anonymous) 2011-05-07 12:39 pm (UTC)(link)I guess my main problem with this comment is it feels too much like you're speaking for all rape victims. Which is obviously impossible. And kind of bothersome.
As a rape victim, talking about how much worse certain rapes are than others, while discussing a secret where rape was listed as okay to fantasize about basically, definitely rubbed me the wrong way. And it's not because I think I have it worse than slaves, or because I want my rape to be the most important rape. Just ... in a culture where rape is not taken very seriously and is a very big problem, I don't know why we're arguing about some rapes being way worse than others and gross to fantasize about but others being okay and not at all creepy to anyone to fantasize about.
And to make it clear, I'm actually not talking about the discussion about the rape of a slave, but some of the comments you're making here. "A rape where a person was set on FIRE would be worse than a rape were someone wasn't, because the trauma experienced by the victim would be a different. A father raping his child would likely be WAY WORSE than a rape from a stranger" Stuff like that kinda bothers me. Especially when you say that it's "just logic." Idk I feel that it IS dismissive of real rape victims who feel differently as just as crazy and illogical as they're often told they are.
I am willing to acknowledge that the rape of a slave probably would be way worse than most people who are "free" (there are a few situations other than what we commonly think of as slavery in which I would describe the person as not at all free, but perhaps those could be described accurately as slavery too so maybe this is a completely moot point) because though I am a POC and have experienced racism I have never experienced anything even remotely close to slavery for any prolonged period of time.
But as someone who has been raped several different times, I disagree with your other statements being so broad and implying that anyone who doesn't feel the same way is not a rape victim or isn't being logical.
I was raped by my grandfather. Many times. I was also raped by a stranger. For me, the rape by the stranger was worse. And that rape by a stranger didn't involve being set on fire or anything, but yet another rape by an abusive boyfriend did burn me and I still don't find it as hard to cope with as the rape by a stranger. I'm not saying that I'm right, and that's how everybody should see such situations, but I am saying that I think such generalizations aren't true and to say it's "just logic" does dismiss the feelings and experiences of real rape victims.
To me, the rape by a stranger had longer lasting hurt and deeper implications because it happened began in a public place I thought was safe. The idea that this could happen to me anywhere, even when others were around me, made me more depressed and terrified than anything else. The other times had been while I was alone, and I consoled myself by surrounding myself with trusted friends and feeling safer. A random stranger being able to get to me in a situation where I expected to be protected by others was shattering and made me stop feeling safe anywhere. Not to mention that though it only happened once by this man, not as many times as by my grandfather, but those attacks had been shorter, and I had not feared for my life as I did when I was raped by a stranger for 10 consecutive hours and prevented from escaping for the entirety of that time, after having been forcefully removed from a supposedly safe public location.
And I know rape can hurt for many more reasons than just physical pain, but for me that was also a factor. The rapes that hurt less and healed were easier to forget and disassociate from. The anal rape by a stranger that leaves me when bleeding when I use the bathroom is impossible for me to forget.
I'm not trying to jump on you and I am not mad at your or anything. I just think it's worth considering that there are many sides to a story and many interpretations of an experience, and there are many many details and factors that influence how someone will feel about a terrible experience, and so broad generalizations may not be helpful or true.
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And then we haven't even gotten to the point of: should we police people's kinks, even if they are objectively worse than ours are? Which was the point of the post, and frankly a bit of a can of worms....
No one is talking about policing anyone's kinks. The OP said s/he thinks fandom's support of some kinks goes too far, and that the subtext of some of these kinks is frightening and something s/he judges. OP did not say anything about trying to get comm mods or LJ staff to modify their policies against kink, or individual authors to stop writing, or individual readers to stop reading.
This was also something OP felt the need to say anonymously, which kind of implies that OP knows s/he would be shouted down if s/he even tried to have an open discussion about some kinks being problematic. This is a problem. The attitude toward discussing things like this in fandom is a problem. Kink being a sacred cow no one should ever dare to talk about in a less than 100% positive way is a problem.
Bitchy Jones (a femdom blogger I recommend to a lot of people) said something once that I think is something more people should think about: "And you know, talking of not my kink, people do like to hit me over the head with your kink is not my kink but your kink is okay. Yeah, yeah. Now, I should probably do a whole post about this thing, but to cover it in brief. I don’t think that just because something is someone’s kink it is therefore *beyond* *criticism* – yes, even by other perverts! (Does anyone *really* think this? Like in kink you have to check in your critical faculties with your street wear.) (http://bitchyjones.wordpress.com/2007/08/18/men-at-work/)"
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(Anonymous) 2011-05-07 12:41 pm (UTC)(link)TW for rape, sexual harassment and abusive relationships
My agreement with the second commenter has to do with the fact that I think
Some experiences feel worse to the person experiencing them, whether anyone could understand why or not. The pain is not the same, and I just don't think that accepting that means saying that other rapes "don't count." Your experience can be worse than mine without mine being less horrible to me, if that makes sense?
Or, to put it another way, someone I know and love dearly was sexually abused for years by her stepfather. Her experience has had a far more profoundly traumatizing effect on her than mine had on me. (For one example: I still enjoy both partner sex and masturbation. She does not.) But we've told each other our stories, and neither of us feels like the differences in our experiences and their aftermath means one of us is the "real" survivor and the other's pretending. There's room for what happened to us to be different and affect us differently without saying only one is valid.
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(Anonymous) 2011-05-05 02:38 am (UTC)(link)(Though it still makes an uncomfortable answer to the original anon's question of how can there be a hierarchy to human suffering when we're talking about violation of the body through rape and torture, when both actions imply the victims' complete lack of control.)