Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2012-01-13 07:20 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2012-01-13 07:20 pm
[ SECRET POST #1837 ]
⌈ Secret Post #1837 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
01.
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02. [broken link]
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03.
[Robin Of Sherwood/Michael Praed]
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04.
[Glee]
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05.
[We Got Married - Ga In (Brown Eyed Girls)/Jo Kwon (2AM)]
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06.
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07.
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08.
[Buzz Lightyear of Star Command]
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09. http://i.imgur.com/8DbqS.png
[linked for nudity/kind of porny]
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10.
[Josh Groban and Andrea Bocelli]
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11.
[Beast Wars, Megatron]
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12.
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13.
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14.
[Magic Mike]
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15.
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16. [repeat]
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17.
[Harry Potter & Little House on the Prairie]
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18.
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19.
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20.
[X-Men: First Class]
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21.
[Death Note]
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22.
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23.
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24.
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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]
25. [SPOILERS for something, OP did not specify]
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26. [SPOILERS for Vampire Hunter D]
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27. [SPOILERS for Christmas Doctor Who and New Year's Sherlock]
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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]
28. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]
[SPOILERS for Loveless]
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29. [TRIGGER WARNING for abuse]
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30. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]
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31. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape, animal cruelty]
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #262.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
And they are. They have a level of infamy that I haven't seen in any other case... expect maybe the Spanish Black Legend. From a humane POV, murder is plain wrong, but the effect that Nazi crimes had on people's minds put them in another level. I expressed myself wrongly, it seems, and I apologise. Just like the mention of the Ukraninan genocide answered my question about how Soviet crimes are considered.
Uhm. Yes but not everyone who flips their shit about the way some Hetalia fans make light of the Nazis were actually directly affected by Nazis. Hell, most people who carry on about Nazis weren't.
True. But I'd wager that the effects and repercussion of Nazi crimes do have an impact in most of our societies, if only because we learn more about them thant we learn about other cases.
It's a matter of media sensationalism of Nazis that continues to this day.
That's a good theory. But why do you think Nazis are more in the spotlight.
When Merkel gave her "multikulti is dead" speech, the BBC did an incorrect translation of it to try to make it sound like "oh no Germany might be going Nazi again~!" when in reality the speech was about Turkish immigrants murdering Turkish women in "honor killings" while in Germany and trying to get away with it by hiding behind the "it's my culture!" excuse, and Merkel was saying "um yeah no, if you live in Germany you don't get to kill people and get away with it, culture or not." But since Nazis are still a popular thing to sensationalize, that got dragged in.
True. I remember that speech and, honest to God, I did a double take. Because Germany has a sad story on this issues and it's pretty hard to ignore it even if you know modern Germany is nothing like that, save for a few lunatics.
I wonder how many people know about the Turkish issue? I had a long talk with an Austria exchange student but I must admit that, unless you look for it, news on cultural clashing in Europe hardly reach here. How is it in the US?
And they are. They have a level of infamy that I haven't seen in any other case... expect maybe the Spanish Black Legend. From a humane POV, murder is plain wrong, but the effect that Nazi crimes had on people's minds put them in another level. I expressed myself wrongly, it seems, and I apologise. Just like the mention of the Ukraninan genocide answered my question about how Soviet crimes are considered.
<i>Uhm. Yes but not everyone who flips their shit about the way some Hetalia fans make light of the Nazis were actually directly affected by Nazis. Hell, most people who carry on about Nazis weren't.</i>
True. But I'd wager that the effects and repercussion of Nazi crimes do have an impact in most of our societies, if only because we learn more about them thant we learn about other cases.
<i>It's a matter of media sensationalism of Nazis that continues to this day.</i>
That's a good theory. But why do you think Nazis are more in the spotlight.
<i>When Merkel gave her "multikulti is dead" speech, the BBC did an incorrect translation of it to try to make it sound like "oh no Germany might be going Nazi again~!" when in reality the speech was about Turkish immigrants murdering Turkish women in "honor killings" while in Germany and trying to get away with it by hiding behind the "it's my culture!" excuse, and Merkel was saying "um yeah no, if you live in Germany you don't get to kill people and get away with it, culture or not." But since Nazis are still a popular thing to sensationalize, that got dragged in.</i>
True. I remember that speech and, honest to God, I did a double take. Because Germany has a sad story on this issues and it's pretty hard to ignore it even if you know modern Germany is nothing like that, save for a few lunatics.
I wonder how many people know about the Turkish issue? I had a long talk with an Austria exchange student but I must admit that, unless you look for it, news on cultural clashing in Europe hardly reach here. How is it in the US?
<i<When did I say they were? idk if you're trying to insult my intelligence here or what, but my point is that they are both horrible things. Not that they're synonyms. </i>
I must have misread you, then.
<i>And you're the one who brought up mass killings in the first place. </i>
Because there tends to be a debate about the line between genocide and mass killing.
<i>And uh. They are all stone cold. Because it takes a total inhuman approach to be willing to kill people on such a scale. Even just murdering one person is something that is very hard to do without some level of detachment from humanity. </i>
I disagree. Many horrid, massive crimes are committed for entirely non-rational reasons. Or better yet, without much of an elaborated rationale behind them. Not every genocide has the complex legal and "scientific" structure the Nazis created.
My country as an example: the Army kidnapped, tortured and murdered people with a certain method but fuelled by anti-communist paranoia. It was no-where near the level of thought the Nazis put on it. The Middle Ages saw plentiful of mass killings of the Jewish population in the context of religious hysteria. The destruction of native peoples in South America was more of a blind lashing filled with cruelty and horror than a well-thought plan to exterminate a group of people that was legally equal to the Spanish conquerors. The Crusades are a good example of mass killings done without any planning, too.
Not all murderers are devoid of humanity: not all of them are psychopaths/sociopaths.
<i>Yes, this is all fascinating, but it's not at all what you were saying in your initial comment. You flat out claimed Nazis are the worst ever. Which is utter bullshit. </i>
I said that they are in a different level and are regarded so.
no subject
Exactly. Which is a judgment call claiming that it was the worst case ever. Which is bullshit. I'm sorry, but any killing like this is devoid of humanity. It's treating an entire group of people as less than human, and behaving as though it's justified to murder them as such. It doesn't matter if there's some sort of "scientific" rationale attached or not. Deciding to kill a large amount of people for simply being of a certain religion or nationality or ethnic group is a monstrous act no matter why it's done. The end.
no subject
Killing like this is devoid of humanity? I wish. But not every person who committed these crimes are psychopaths/sociopaths. They weren't devoid of humanity. If that were the case there would be no need to question why happened. Humans did this, normal humans.
And I would say that the construction of justifications and or rationale behind these kind of crimes is what make them unique and interesting to study. It's not all the same and it's not a bunch of monsters killing people. Regardless of how wrong it is, is not as simple as that.
no subject
"Killing like this is devoid of humanity? I wish. But not every person who committed these crimes are psychopaths/sociopaths. They weren't devoid of humanity. If that were the case there would be no need to question why happened. Humans did this, normal humans."
It is. To be able to kill another person, someone has to shut off their compassion entirely for that moment. The thing to study here is what exactly makes someone willing to do that. Sometimes, in cases of a murder of a single person, it happens for pretty normal and human reasons. A jilted lover, someone who's been abused finally fighting back against their attacker, some sort of escalated fight or feud, etc. But when it's no longer on a personal level, but rather an attack on an entire group, it's pretty much never understandable within human emotion. To murder people solely for a group they belong to is to dehumanize them, and to do that to such an extent to be willing to kill them is to dehumanize yourself, if just temporarily.
no subject
I don't agree. History show us very compassionate people who are able to kill hundreds due to religious and/or ideological conviction, not to mention plain old fear. Also, I think that dehumanising the people responsible of these crimes (unless they are, in fact, psychopaths) is making them less guilty. Maybe I don't understand "being human" as you do? I don't think it's 100% good thing: I see people as being a mix of goodness and evil and mediocrity.
no subject
...In other words, you think the perceptions are right. Look. There are two different levels to look at here; the perception that people have and what the actual truth is. They are separate matters and need to be treated as such. To say that what the Nazis did is perceived as worse than other genocides (or "on a different level" if you must insist on that wording, but stop playing games with me, you know as well as I do that it's synonymous with "worse") is fine, but it's not the same as saying what the Nazis did was worse than other genocides ("on a different level", what the fuck ever). The latter is honestly offensive IMO, as it downplays the tragedy of the lives lost in other genocides.
"I don't agree. History show us very compassionate people who are able to kill hundreds due to religious and/or ideological conviction, not to mention plain old fear. Also, I think that dehumanising the people responsible of these crimes (unless they are, in fact, psychopaths) is making them less guilty. Maybe I don't understand "being human" as you do? I don't think it's 100% good thing: I see people as being a mix of goodness and evil and mediocrity."
No, humans aren't all good, and I never said that, but to actually take another's life is crossing a line unlike just about any other crime a person can commit. To be able to do it even once and not be wracked with guilt over it after the fact is to kill a bit of your own humanity. To be able to kill mass numbers of people, be it directly or indirectly or both, and not only not feel guilty, but to justify it? It's inhuman. It doesn't matter why it's done. There's a reason why so many religions and other schools of moral thought regard murder as the greatest sin or crime. Taking another's life is a horrid thing to do, and anyone being desensitized to it enough to have hundreds, thousands, millions, etc of people put to death is really fucking scary. It doesn't matter if the reason behind it is science or blood purity or religion or whatever else. Honestly, I think it's scariest when the driving force is religion, myself.
Just. To actually believe what the Nazis did was worse is extremely fucked up. Anything in which so many lives are lost is a horrible tragedy, and comparing them to decide which is "worse" is fucking disgusting.
no subject
There are not enough internets to award you right now.
no subject
I think that perception is what makes people more sensitive to one than to the other.
Look. There are two different levels to look at here; the perception that people have and what the actual truth is. They are separate matters and need to be treated as such. To say that what the Nazis did is perceived as worse than other genocides (or "on a different level" if you must insist on that wording, but stop playing games with me, you know as well as I do that it's synonymous with "worse") is fine, but it's not the same as saying what the Nazis did was worse than other genocides ("on a different level", what the fuck ever). The latter is honestly offensive IMO, as it downplays the tragedy of the lives lost in other genocides.
Agreed. But perception is what makes people react differently, so perception is the interesting thing to discuss.
No, it's not a synonym and I didn't mean it like that. It's not my place to judge what's worse and I really don't need to. I am interested on the reasons why this perception is so widespread. I never said that what the Nazis did is worse. The OP was mad about people considering the Nazis worse than the Soviet Union and I think there are reasons why this is so common in the Western. The fact that there are reasons has nothing to do with the immorality of the act itself but how people reacted to it.
Again, I don't have any need to say what's worse because the lost of human lives is a regrettable event every time and genocide is unjustifiable every time. But that is not what I am talking about, even if you don't want to believe me.
If anything, it would be useful to understand the impact of the Holocaust in our collective conscience and to try to develop more awareness about the Soviet crimes.
I would like yo agree with you but history is filled with normal people who kill without feeling guilt. Many of of heroes killed without a speck of guilt. I agree that's scary and inconceivable and that's why, in our times, when it happens it is so baffling. But I can't agree that it's beyond humanity to do so because that's making things simpler than they are.
I'll give an example: the Crusade against the Cathars. The people who murder thousands of innocent people were absolutely convinced that they were right and that they were doing God's will. They were perfectly normal humans who, in that particular context committed an horrendous crime. To think of them as beyond humanity is to miss the chance to understand why it happened and learn from it.
The same with the Nazis. The vast majority of them were normal, non-psychopathic humans. And yet they did what they did. It can't be attributed to personal reasons, there has to be something else there, something that we can dissect.
no subject
In 1995, there was a terrible bombing in my country, the biggest terrorist attack in the history of my country. It was paid and organised by Iran and targeted against a Jewish organization. It changed our society. From a moral POV it was a s horrid as the 9/11 even if very few people died in comparison. But the 9/11 is in another level when it comes to people's perception because of where it happened and what it meant.