Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2012-01-27 06:45 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2012-01-27 06:45 pm
[ SECRET POST #1851 ]
⌈ Secret Post #1851 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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02.
[Coronation Street]
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03.
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05.
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06.
[The Fly]
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07.
[Black Lagoon]
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09.
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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]
10. [SPOILERS for Catherine]
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11. [SPOILERS for the Vampire Diaries]
[Vampire Diaries and Kyle XY]
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12. [SPOILERS for Huntress Mini]
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13. [SPOILERS for Mawaru Penguindrum]
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14. [SPOILERS for Sherlock]
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15. [SPOILERS for Sherlock]
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16. [SPOILERS for Sherlock]
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17. [SPOILERS for Sherlock]
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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]
18. [TRIGGER WARNING for gore/death]
[SPOILERS for Sherlock]
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19. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]
[SPOILERS for Kannazuki No Miko]
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #264.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
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(Anonymous) 2012-01-29 05:45 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-01-29 07:34 pm (UTC)(link)Okay, so we have a fact that we may find repugnant, but it remains a fact nonetheless: the fact that many people feel this way about KnM. Assuming we rule out the most primitive and irrational reactions, namely "rabid denial of the unpleasant fact" and "shooting the messenger" (not that everyone in this thread has ruled out those reactions, of course) then how do we meet the OP's challenge? How do we explain why, how people like KnM?
The easiest out, as it always is, is demonizing those who don't think like us. "Anyone who likes KnM must be a douchebag monster! Write them all off as evil and we're done! Case closed!" Simple, easy, and quite clearly there are many people who are quite happy to make that their analysis and be done. But the simplest way out is not always the best or most realistic. Maybe we need to work harder to find an answer.
Less simplistic is the hypothesis "There are many people who like KnM and are not douchebag monsters; however, all of them are deeply repulsed by the rape in it and they simply like everything else in the series enough that it makes up for how much they hate the rape." This is somewhat more realistic than the "every KnM fan is a douchebag monster" hypothesis... but it's still another incarnation of the "everyone who is good thinks like me, and everyone who doesn't think like me is bad" assumption. Maybe we need to keep looking and find a hypothesis that doesn't rest on such an assumption.
That leads to the hypothesis "Not everyone reads KnM in the same way. Even though people are rightfully repulsed by real-life murder, they can be found enjoying stories of fictional murder, even sometimes applauding the fictional murderers, in numbers too large to be explained by the hypothesis 'they're all douchebag monsters who think murder is all right.' People can condemn real-life vigilantes but applaud a fictional character who they know will get revenge on the 'right' people who really deserve all they get. Perhaps in a similar manner, some people can read of an act that they would never condone in a real relationship and interpret it differently in a fictional relationship. They don't believe that 'okay rapes' are real; they're simply capable of suspending their disbelief in such a thing when it's presented to them in a context they know to be fiction."
Obviously, there are people who will hate this hypothesis, and will insist that "everyone who doesn't hate KnM and everyone who doesn't hate everybody that doesn't hate KnM is a monster and we should hate 'em!!" is the truly rational assessment of the situation. *shrug* Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but I'm also entitled not to be impressed when someone who hasn't even actually shown an understanding of a presented hypothesis claims to have utterly rebutted it.
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(Anonymous) 2012-01-29 07:56 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-01-31 01:15 am (UTC)(link)I must disagree with you that that's what people are taking issue with, however. They would be quite justified in being offended at wolfie saying "You have to interpret it my way, as an expression of how deeply Chikane cares, or else you're stupid!!" But whether or not that's what wolfie actually intended to say (I doubt that it was) what people have been very clearly saying in her direction is "You have to interpret it my way, as an act of pure evil, or else you're evil!!"
So far you're the only one who has addressed at all one of the key issues I've been trying to point out, which is... it's fiction. Why should it be mandatory to regard a fictional rape in exactly the same light as a rape in real life, when we can very easily think of half a dozen things, some even more serious than rape, which we are willing to accept in fictional contexts very differently from how we'd accept them in real life? You allude to the answer that people might be unwilling to accept this particular interpretation of the fictional KnM rape because it's too close to a twisted train of thought that has been used to try and justify real-world rape, and I can certainly identify with that - earlier I mentioned "vigilante justice" as one of the things people frequently accept in their fiction even if they wouldn't in reality; I didn't mention how personally repulsive I find it even in fiction, because of some of the horrible things I've seen people do and read of others doing, thinking they were actually doing good by being brutal and vindictive and violent to people who "deserved it" ... some of whom turned out not to be guilty of the things they were accused of.
But the thing is, should I dismiss everyone who loves a good "guy gets revenge when the law won't act" movie as a horrible monster? As someone who would themselves go out torturing and killing if they thought they were getting righteous vengeance? I don't think that's very realistic. Perhaps some of them would, but I think more of them simply say "It's fiction. Because it's fiction, we know it really is justified revenge against someone who really can't be dealt with any other way; that's clearly what the screenwriter decided, so I'll just accept that it's so and feel good with no qualms when that righteous vengeance is achieved on the screen." I don't insist that everyone has to think like me on this issue or else be a monster. Why are so many people so insistent that on this issue, everyone really does have to have the same interpretation or be evil?
-- woodsman
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(Anonymous) 2012-01-31 01:59 am (UTC)(link)But whether or not that's what wolfie actually intended to say (I doubt that it was) what people have been very clearly saying in her direction is "You have to interpret it my way, as an act of pure evil, or else you're evil!!"
BECAUSE HOW THE FUCK ELSE COULD YOU INTERPRET FUCKING RAPE AND NOT BE A COMPLETE SHITBAG?
Silly me, forgot who I'm talking to...
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(Anonymous) 2012-02-01 12:56 am (UTC)(link)Then you turn around and confirm that I was in fact completely correct about what I said you were taking issue with.
If you showed any propensity to understand and discuss distinctions such as "things in real life" vs. "things in fiction," or "taking issue with being told you should see things a certain way" vs. "taking issue with being told that someone doesn't see things your way," I would be interested in continuing this discussion with you - despite your unwillingness or inability to adhere to basic rules of civilized debate, such as there really being no need to scream. As it is, however, I wonder if you would at least be considerate enough to adopt a moniker for this discussion, so I know which posts are pointless to reply to.
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(Anonymous) 2012-02-01 02:53 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-01-30 11:05 am (UTC)(link)After all, it's ~easier~ for me to demonize him as a douchebag monster.
Educate me, oh wise man.
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(Anonymous) 2012-01-31 01:17 am (UTC)(link)-- woodsman
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(Anonymous) 2012-01-31 01:54 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-01-31 07:58 am (UTC)(link)I'm not trying to correctly describe your argument.
That's your job. You chose to defend the rape apologist, you get the burden of explaining why that's okay.
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(Anonymous) 2012-01-31 03:37 pm (UTC)(link)Awesome comment is awesome, and you should feel awesome for making it.
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(Anonymous) 2012-02-01 01:04 am (UTC)(link)-- woodsman
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(Anonymous) 2012-02-01 02:55 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-01-31 03:06 am (UTC)(link)Yes, i know,i know, I'm an asshole and after this thread,i don't give a fuck , so stupid are some of you.
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(Anonymous) 2012-01-31 03:13 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-02-01 02:28 am (UTC)(link)It would be possible to put together a cogent argument about the relationship between what people see of rape in fiction and how it leads them to regard rape in the real world that leads to the conclusion "therefore we should not be accepting of rape in fiction" - but only one post so far has even come close to doing that. Most of the posts so far simply refuse to accept that there is any difference between rape in fiction and rape in the real world.
Sorry, folks, but throwing tantrums does not change reality for you. And it doesn't even change people's minds. This is why I (speaking as a child sexual abuse survivor) really detest the victim-deifying mentality still so prevalent in survivor culture: survivors are given tacit or sometimes explicit permission to behave in ways that would never be considered acceptable in any other civilized adult. They're encouraged to stoke their hatred towards their abusers, fan those flames higher and harder, encouraged to "let their anger out" primarily at their abusers but also at anyone who "compounds the abuse" by daring to even unwittingly do something the poor saintly survivor finds more difficult to deal with because of their past - in short, they are steered away from acting like mature, healthy adults who have overcome their past and towards behaving like dangerous psychos with no impulse control that it's not safe to be around.
Want what you say about sexual abuse to be listened to, and taken seriously? Here's a really good first step: look like a sane, mature adult who can discuss the subject reasonably. Respond to the argument the other person actually made, not a straw man argument that sorta sounds like what the other person said. Stooping to vituperative personal abuse? Bad idea.
And yes, I know very well that each time you do behave badly - viciously verbally assaulting someone for saying words of support for rape and abuse they never said, screaming at them for daring to question The Word of a Survivor - you get lots of applause for doing so. You know what that's called? Preaching to the choir. Outside the echo chamber that gives you all that approval for flying into fits of righteous rage, people look at the way you're behaving and they say to themselves "are all rape and sex-abuse survivors walking time bombs just waiting to lash out? can any of them discuss things without going psycho?"
What was done to you as a child was bad enough. Letting it keep you from joining the real world as a mature adult - now that is compounding the damage.
-- woodsman
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(Anonymous) 2012-02-01 02:58 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-02-01 03:49 am (UTC)(link)Tissue?
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(Anonymous) 2012-02-01 06:02 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-01-31 07:55 am (UTC)(link)No shit I fucking need therapy. I was fucking RAPED BY MY UNCLE AS A CHILD. And people are playing it off as ~romantic~ and ~I just don't understand it~ if I don't agree.
Go light yourself on fire and jump off a cliff, you fucking shitstain.
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(Anonymous) 2012-01-31 03:39 pm (UTC)(link)I really do hope you get the help you need. And I mean that sincerely. Because what happened to you was awful and you deserve to recover from it without assholes like these defending such vile actions.
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(Anonymous) 2012-02-02 11:12 am (UTC)(link)