fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1892 ]

[ SECRET POST #1892 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1892 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

__________________________________________________

02.

[How I Met Your Mother]

__________________________________________________

03.

[White Collar]

__________________________________________________

04.

[Smash]

__________________________________________________

05.

[How I Met Your Mother]

__________________________________________________

06.

[Revenge]

__________________________________________________

07.

[The Hunger Games]

__________________________________________________

08.

[Yu-Gi-Oh]

__________________________________________________

09.

[White Collar]

__________________________________________________

10.

[Obscurus Lupa, Subspecies]

__________________________________________________

11.

[Castleville]

__________________________________________________

12.

[Gintama]

__________________________________________________

13.

[The Cat Returns]

__________________________________________________

14.

[Mythbusters]

__________________________________________________

15.

[Invasion of the Body Snatchers]

__________________________________________________

16.

[Titanic]

__________________________________________________

17.

[All Dogs go to Heaven]

__________________________________________________

18.

[Hatoful Boyfriend]

__________________________________________________

19.

[Pokemon]

__________________________________________________

20.

[Phantom of the Opera]

__________________________________________________

21.

[The Middle]

__________________________________________________

22.

[life on mars]

__________________________________________________

23.

[Scrubs]

__________________________________________________

24.

[A Goofy Movie]

__________________________________________________

25.

[Nerimon/Alex Day]

__________________________________________________

26.

[Katie McGrath]

__________________________________________________

27.

[Chuck]

__________________________________________________

28.

[Top Chef Season 9]

__________________________________________________

29.

[The Vampire Diaries]

__________________________________________________

30.

[The Vampire Diaries]

__________________________________________________

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 045 secrets from Secret Submission Post #270.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Agreed very much. This argument reeks of condescension because it assumes that women aren't their own people with fully-formed identities, opinions, and desires, but rather delicate fluffballs prone to being wafted every which way under society's influence. It also generalizes women into a mass, when actually, we're a group of very diverse people. Undoubtedly, gender expectations had a hand in creating each of us, but once created, aren't we still individuals? As a woman, when I sit down to make a decision, I don't consider how some abstract social force may be influencing my thought process. I think, "What do I want? Does this feel good? Can I live with this? What consequences may there be? What benefits?" etc. If I have any hangups, even if they're caused by society's pressures, I have to deal with them as private psychological issues. And when I consider my family when I make decisions, I'm not thinking as a feminist, asking myself whether I'm capitulating to the priorities of a patriarchy that would have women be their families' beast of burden. I'm thinking as a daughter and a sister who loves her family very much.

I am a feminist, and gender roles & the way society constructs gender identities are among the importnt issues that need to be examined. But criticizing and controlling women's choices is a horrible way to go about it.

I think if you aren't criticizing your own choices even a little bit, you're forfeiting any agency you might have deserved.

Well, yeah. I'm all for individuals questioning, criticizing, and examining their own decisions. But that's a people thing, not a women thing. That's my problem with dorknessrising's argument; it positions women as so brainwashed by society that we don't even count as full humans without careful guidance. That "feminist" theory is the most sexist thing I've heard all day.

It's more of a women thing because of our history. Men don't have the baggage of ever not having a choice. Women do, and social inertia plays a huge part in it. We (and I'm including myself here) are brainwashed from the time we develop cognitive reasoning to think certain choices and behaviors are more acceptable than others because of our gender. It's subtle enough that we don't even realize it's happening until we stop to question why we think this is okay. To believe you're above all of that just because you're a feminist is extremely naive.

Even if society is influencing a woman's choice that doesn't make it not her own!

You know what? I believe women are capable of making their own damn choices, by her own priorities, and I don't see how this is some sort of radical, naive thinking when I'm talking to feminists!

Even if a woman chooses to become a nurse instead of a doctor because of what society says (which is a huge assumption already), how does it make it not her choice, or her not her own person? Maybe she chose to stay in society's ideals because she doesn't like being the pioneer, period. It doesn't make it not her choice.

I agree that it's good to be critical of what society does say a person's role is. However, I have a big problem with people assuming that most women are too stupid to figure out what society wants, or incapable of deciding things because society puts pressure on them.

You're eliminating the individual which is a big fucking deal. As a society, yes, women are pressured into doing x instead of y, and it's important to look at that. However, what you seem to be implying is that a women is not capable of choosing x for herself. More than that, you're saying she needs to question every time whether she's really making a decision. Yeah, that's pretty damn insulting. I'd punch you in the face for coming up to me and saying "Now did you really make the decision to do that or is it just because men told you to?" particularly when followed up with "But did you really think about the fact that men told you to this when you decided? Because if you didn't eliminate that entirely, you didn't make a real decision and you're not your own person."

Women are capable of choosing for themselves. But because of the manipulation we've been subject to our entire lives, we have to work a little harder at deprogramming ourselves to make sure the choice is truly ours. I'm sorry if the truth hurts, but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking I'm above it all.

You're an asshole.

You're losing the individual for the group.

If there are more women out there who are nurses rather than doctors, it is an important issue. Telling a woman that she was wrong to choose to be a nurse because that's what she wanted to be when she was a little because it wasn't what she wanted, just what the patriarchy wanted her to be, and she's just following her programming makes you an asshole. You would deserve to get popped in the nose for that.

You're implicitly making the judgement that no woman could truly want to be a nurse instead of a doctor. You don't get to do that.

You're assuming women are incapable of making choices for themselves unless they do it the way you say. That is misogynistic.

No, that isn't what I'm saying. But if burning that strawman will keep your house warm, then I'm not going to stop you, sweetiesnookums.

Then what are you saying, obviously I just don't fucking get it.

You're saying women can't make real choices unless they are aware of what the man is saying. You also say, most women aren't and don't make real decisions. This says "You are just following the man without realizing it. If you were really making your own choices, you would probably choose differently."

So go out to people following the man and preach about how they're not deciding for themselves.

No, you don't get it.

Then explain it. I'm waiting.

I already have. Several times. If you don't get it by now, I consider you a lost cause.

Hahaha! Keep telling yourself that!

It hurts when someone finds a flaw in your logic, doesn't it?

(frozen comment) (no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-03-09 20:13 (UTC) - Expand

I'm aware that social pressures exist and influence women's values and perceptions, and I'm not claiming I'm immune to that process. I actually agree with everything you just said until your last sentence. Where we differ is here: I think it's a dick move to attack individual women for this. For example, let's create a hypothetical woman who plans to wait until marriage to have sex. She has made this decision because she was raised to think it's the right thing to do and because she's uncomfortable with the idea of having sex in any relationship that isn't 100% committed.

Now, it's perfectly fair to take society to task for all the forces and currents and influences that encourage women to take this road. I'll be with you the entire way as you examine the historical context of women as property, marriage as transaction and virginity as mark of ownership; I'll nod along as you talk about the double standards where men are high-fived for sexual conquest but women are sluts; I'll agree that demonizing and stigmatizing women for having sex outside of socially approved unions is horrible and sexist, and that all of these forces probably helped create the sexual identity of this woman who's waiting until marriage. But the moment you go up to that woman and say, "Hey! Are you sure this is what you want? Have you really examined why you want this? Don't you know this is because of sexism? Carefully consider your choices!" that's when you have become a jerk. That's her comfort level, bro! Leave her alone! If she feels so inclined, maybe she will realize that she really only made that choice because she has sexual hangups because of her upbringing. Or maybe not. Either way, you have to keep your nose out of it. Criticize society all you want, please; but back off from the private lives people live within that society. That's their business and no one else's.

And I think it's equally fair to take individuals to task for making decisions that conform to harmful standards. You can't attack society as a whole without attacking individuals, because society is kind of made of them.

You can and should attack what people do and say to other people. You should criticize parents who teach their daughters harmful things about sex, judges who dismiss rape cases because of what the victim was wearing, bosses that only promote men, etc etc. You should not attack individual women whose personhood was formed in a sexist society. Who cares if they'd be different people and want different things in a perfectly equal utopia? You're still attacking their personhood.

ETA: To clarify: you shouldn't attack individual women for what they want, what they feel comfortable with in their own lives, etc. If they're doing something that perpetuates harm, like calling other women sluts for leading looser sexual lives, then that's a negative attitude about others that should be dissected and criticized. However, it's still possible to think it's okay for other women to be promiscuous without being comfortable being promiscuous yourself. Fin!

Edited 2012-03-09 20:17 (UTC)

I would respectfully disagree with that. You can still think someone is making the wrong choice, but still accept and promote their right to do it, even when it effects others.

I think creationism is bunk, so bunk. However, I don't think that people can't teach their children creationism. I'd say that as a society, yes, children must learn about evolution, put it on tests, etc., but I don't think it's right to say that people could not teach creationism to their children at home.

Okay, yeah, I mostly agree with you. I would not stop the private teaching of creationism, although I also think it's bunk. I do think we as a society should attempt to stop the dissemination of beliefs that are actively harmful: like the idea that gay people are lesser human beings. You can measure the impact of that in teen suicides and partners barred from their dying loved one's hospital bed.

Yeah. The problem is where one person's rights end and another's begins and that's hard to define.

With the partners thing, it's very clear. You are infringing on a loved one's right to be with someone who's dying. Whether you think it's wrong to be gay in the first place doesn't make that right. With the teen suicides, they're horrible, but I don't know where the line is. My guess is that it's more on the bullying side, but I honestly don't know.

I guess, for me personally, it's wrong to treat people differently, for reasons that don't effect you or the situation. For example, if you have the promiscuous woman in the office 99.9% of the time that should change nothing. If she dresses in a way that goes against the company message, talks about personal things that are forbidden to speak about across the board, or something like that, it is addressable only in the way that effects the company. However, you don't have to be friends with her outside of work if you don't like the way she leads her life, even if ideally it would just effect how you set her up with people (where it is directly applicable).

No, that makes you an asshole who assumes that any woman who chooses something that society recommends isn't a real person capable of making real choices.

Firstly - there will be many where society wasn't what tipped the scale. You criticizing their decisions for nothing makes you an asshole.

Secondly - even if they are the ones where society did tip the scale, how dare they choose to take the road of less resistance? Not every woman has choose something that sticks to to the man. In particular, they don't have to choose to stick it to the man with every single choice they make.

More than anything, I hate the implication that if we're not doing x, y, and z; we're not making real decisions or thinking at all. How demeaning can you get?!

If I have any hangups, even if they're caused by society's pressures, I have to deal with them as private psychological issues. And when I consider my family when I make decisions, I'm not thinking as a feminist, asking myself whether I'm capitulating to the priorities of a patriarchy that would have women be their families' beast of burden. I'm thinking as a daughter and a sister who loves her family very much

This is exactly it! Even if, for example, society is pressuring you to sacrifice for your family, choosing it in the society is not a horrible thing. The results aren't made in a vacuum so why should the decision be any different? (This doesn't mean that we shouldn't question society's norms, only that it's not unthinking to have them influence decisions.)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if a woman chooses to be a nurse instead of a doctor because being a nurse is traditionally more feminine, persecuting her decision isn't going to help. Her values may be different than mine, but it was still her choice which makes it valid. Not every woman wants to "stick it to the man." Instead of lambasting her for her choice, we need to look at why society says women should be nurses instead of doctors and challenge that if need be.

Tl;DR: It's not about critiquing a woman's decisions or telling her she can't make her own decisions of society. It's carefully examining what might be influencing her and critiquing those things.

I LIKE THIS COMMENT.

This doesn't mean that we shouldn't question society's norms

Yeah, exactly. Hey, I hate sexism and how pervasive it is. But even if sexism has created an individual woman's comfort level and desires, those are still her comfort level and desires. If anyone's going to deconstruct those, she has to do.

Thanks for being awesome.

Ah! It's Shirley! I love Shirley!

But even if sexism has created an individual woman's comfort level and desires, those are still her comfort level and desires.

Exactly!

We need to ask "Why are women doing x over y as a group?" not "Why is this woman doing x over y?"

I love pretty much everyone on that beautiful show.

Yes. Focusing on and belittling the choices of individual women -- still, like in all history -- seems to me a strategy where feminism has turned back on itself so far it has begun to eat its own tail and become sexism. Like the theory that no woman can meaningfully consent to sex, because society has influenced her desires. Harhar.

I love pretty much everyone on that beautiful show.

Ditto! They're all well-formed characters. It's also invalidated so many of those "privilege" checkers for me. "Think of your favorite show. How many of the main characters are minorities?" "Umm... everyone but Jeff. Maybe Pierce if you don't count ageism."

Actually there's a very interesting theory I once heard of where the two extremes often end up promoting the same thing for different reasons.

For example, you might see where the right might attempt to censor people based on things that are offensive to religion, whereas the left might attempt to censor things that are offensive to minorities. Both end up with severe censorship, just for highly divergent reasons.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #1892 ]

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) (no subject)

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) no subject