fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1898 ]

[ SECRET POST #1898 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1898 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 65 secrets from Secret Submission Post #271.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Or maybe you know, she was there to have a good time and her definition of a good time is not some drunk guy at the bar hitting on her when she made it clear she wasn't interested?

Or are women obligated to accept every advance made towards them?

Because if me shooting down a guy repeatedly when I'm trying to have a good time and he's not taking the hint that drunks aren't my type, then I guess I'm a bitch. And I'd rather be a bitch, frankly, because I shouldn't have to worry about "manners" when I'm trying to have a good time.

It wasn't a matter of not accepting his advances. She had every right to turn him down. No, what gets me is that he had only been talking to her by that point. He offered to buy her a drink and asked her what her name was. End of story. He wasn't molesting her or anything. Nothing in his behavior merited the insult she threw at him. She could have easily just rolled her eyes and walked away. Which is what I used to do, before I was married, when I used to go to clubs and would get hit on by someone I wasn't interested in. I did not stand there and insult the person.

You see what I'm saying here? Would you honestly tell a guy you just met that you thought he was a hick who only had sex with farm animals? Really? Wow, I don't want to know you.

Honestly, I would have walked away. Because I live in the real world.

I'm not going to judge a fictional character as a bitch (which is a word thrown around fandom as a catch-all for "girls I don't like") for talking a little smack to an obviously intoxicated guy who can't take a hint. She shouldn't have had to keep telling him no. Period. Frankly calling him a dumb hick who only had sex with farm animals (which I read as sarcasm and thought was hilarious) was pretty tame, I think. And he didn't seem terribly offended. (It honestly reminded me of Howard & Penny from TBBT.)

I hate this idea that a drunk dude who can't seem to grasp that his presence isn't wanted is somehow deserving of the respect of a girl who doesn't know him and doesn't want to know him. (Now, by the end of the movie, that's obviously changed - he's earned it by then.)

Frankly I'd love for the movie to have them as friends instead of in the antagonistic relationship they had in ST:XI, because I think their personalities are really similar and CP & ZD have fantastic chemistry.

I did not call her a bitch (I would not call her a bitch, I absolutely detest that word) what I did say was that she was rude, which is exactly my impression from that scene so I stand by my statement. And frankly, I would have equally been offended had it gone the other way, had it be Uhura drunk and hitting on Kirk with him standing there insulting her instead of walking away.

No means no, means no, I would never argue that, we're in full agreement there. But there is dismissing someone, i.e. walking away, and there is antagonizing someone. You see what I'm saying here? She did the latter.

Its not so much that he deserved her respect, because, frankly, he didn't. But he did deserve common courtesy. But I'm old school, I believe everyone deserves common courtesy, unless they cross a certain threshold of unacceptable behavior, which I don't feel he did. As I said, he wasn't touching her, wasn't insulting her, wasn't encroaching on her personal space, he was simply talking to her. Trying to engage her in conversation. That was the worst of his sins during that part of that scene (well that and using the cheesiest pick-up lines known to mankind, so I suppose we can fault him for that if we're going to fault him for anything).

As for his presence not being wanted, he was already sitting at the bar when she approached it. Its not like he approached her on the middle of the dance floor or at her table with her friends. This is another reason why the ball was in her court to walk away.

However, I very much agree with your last sentence. I, too, would like to see them as friends. And I also agree that these incarnations of them are very similar: they're are both very intelligent, both ambitious, and both have a softer side they don't easily show.

nayrt. He wasn't groping her or saying explicit things to her even if he was a little persistent. There was no call for her to say that shitty line and be such a douchebag. She just should've walked away or just ignored his ass while waiting on the drinks. She's an asshole as proven by that exchange who needs to learn some social skills.

Yeah, I hate, Nu!Uhura, which pisses me off 'cause I love TOS Uhura.

Frankly calling him a dumb hick who only had sex with farm animals (which I read as sarcasm and thought was hilarious)

And so did Kirk, for that matter. I actually thought that she appreciated his reaction and was a bit softened by it. Honestly, if the cadets hadn't interrupted? I think the tide might have turned in Kirk's favor. He was being an asshole at first, sure, but he also revealed that he was pretty sharp as the conversation went on. She seemed as much amused as irritated by the time she was telling Cupcake it was "nothing I can't handle."

It's also possible that it wasn't the first time she'd been hit on by one of the 'locals. He may have been the fifth or sixth guy who thought she'd be amendable to his heavy handed charm.

I used to work on an Army base when I was young and single and Jesus, it was like those two things were red flags. I was hit on/approached so many times and had to be politely disinterested sooooo many times, I finally just developed an incredibly bitchy attitude and came off as stuck up because THAT was better than repeatedly having to explain why I wasn't interested.

From what I recall in the film, there was nothing in Uhura's behavior that indicated she was open to Kirk in any way. He presumed when he told the bartender he was buying her drink. He didn't ask her if she was open to that first, he just went ahead and did it. That would have been enough to annoy me. Would I have made the same farm animal remark? Maybe. If I had the idea that he wasn't going to give up easily, I might just so he'd think I was a bitch and back off.

Offering to buy someone drinks is a social norm, a means to show you're interested. Sometimes its even done without a person being aware until the drink is brought to them. This has happened to me before. It's not something that merits insult. If you're not interested in the buyer you say 'thank you, but I'm taken', or 'thank you but no thank you' and you walk away, end of story. That is the polite thing to do.

And I'm sorry, but I don't feel that someone else should be insulted because he's fifth or sixth in a line of suitors. That's ridiculous. It's like punishing a second customer, when it was the first one who stiffed you on a tip at a waitress job. Or punishing all your kids for the actions of one. Basically, what I'm trying to say that Uhura's reaction in that scene was a) antagonistic and b) the crime did not fit the punishment. Kirk tried to engage her in conversation. He flirted with her. He did not use derogatory language, he did not get handsy with her, he did not encroach on her personal space prior to her using that line. Plain and simple, she was rude.

I was raised to believe that common courtesy should prevail unless faced with truly unpardonable behavior. I don't perceive anything Kirk did prior to the delivery of that line as truly unpardonable. He saw a pretty woman and he put himself out there. That's not an unforgivable sin. This is how people meet each other in social settings. Now if he'd tried to get his hand up her skirt or if he'd made obscene gestures and said something along the lines of 'hey, ho, wanna fuck?', then yes, insult him AND kick his ass to hell and back. But he didn't.

It really, really bugs me when writers trying for 'strong and independent' end up confusing it with 'rude and abrasive' which is what I feel was done in that scene. It is possible to be polite, and treat people nicely, and be strong and independent. Really, it is.

A++

~~Can I buy you a drink?~~

Absolutely. ;)

Offering to buy someone drinks

If I'm remembering the movie correctly, he didn't offer. There was no "can I get that for you?" It was more along the lines of "the lady's drinks are on me" to the bartender. Not to her. That's presumptuous. If you want to buy someone a drink, I think it's a good idea to maybe ASK that person first before doing it. If the eye contact is right, then all system's go. But sending a drink to someone is obligating them to be the one to say "no", which makes them the bitch, and most women are raised to be too polite to do that, and that gives some guys the advantage. I understand what you're saying but I think if Kirk had maybe talked to Uhura first, then bought the drink with her permission, she wouldn't have needed to be rude.

And I'm sorry, but I don't feel that someone else should be insulted because he's fifth or sixth in a line of suitors.

Not suitors. Guys in a bar. I'm almost certain she was there to have fun with some friends, not get hit on because she had a skirt on.

If you're not interested in the buyer you say 'thank you, but I'm taken', or 'thank you but no thank you' and you walk away, end of story

I've never felt you had to tell anyone you were taken in order to be left alone. It implies if you were free, then he'd have a chance. And from personal experience, that implication and "thanks but no thanks" just makes some guys try harder.

It really, really bugs me when writers trying for 'strong and independent' end up confusing it with 'rude and abrasive'

I'm gonna have to disagree again. Sometimes being strong and independent DOES mean being rude and abrasive. It's a societal norm that if men are persistent enough, they'll get the girl. Being 'rude and abrasive' cuts down on that quite a bit and I applaude girls like Uhura who aren't afraid of being decisive in their rejection. It cuts down on misunderstandings.

I don't applaud that type of behavior and I never will, thus we're not going to agree on this.

I found her behavior reprehensible. This does not make me a 'fragile' female who gives in to the dictates of society or wilts under the belief that its a man's world. What it does is ensure that I treat people with courtesy and dignity unless they've done something to have that privilege revoked. This is not me trying to hate on Uhura for the sake of taking her down a peg, this is something ingrained in my belief system and very personal to me. I believe in being polite, being courteous, treating people with respect and dignity. This is something that I wish society as a whole still remembered how to do. You really don't see a lot of it in this day and age. Everything is so... in your face, so hostile.

As I said in my first post, I want to like her, but for me to do that, I'd want to see her portrayed as someone I'd hang out with, someone I'd want to know in real life. Based on what we saw in the film, she doesn't seem that way to me right now.

I've never felt you had to tell anyone you were taken in order to be left alone. It implies if you were free, then he'd have a chance. And from personal experience, that implication and "thanks but no thanks" just makes some guys try harder.

I offered the taken line as an alternative for those who are taken, not as a pretty lie to distract. I've been hit on as a married woman, where my husband was parking a car or in the bathroom, and we were waiting for a table to become available by passing time at the bar. A flash of ring does wonders in that situation. In addition, I have never had a guy take 'thanks but no thanks' as anything other than exactly that. Perhaps I have been fortunate in my dealings with men and you have been unfortunate, or maybe, as Kirk once said, we're both extremists (or in this case, extreme cases) and reality is somewhere in-between (ST6).

Generalizing, however, is an unhealthy practice. So to be rude simple because 'some' men are too persistent, or because there are 'some' jerks out there, is a rather dangerous slippery slope. People should be treated on a case to case basis. Innocent until proven guilty, if you will.

And I still feel that nothing Kirk did up to that point merited rude behavior.

Not suitors. Guys in a bar.

Still not an excuse to be rude. Suitors and guys in bars both fall under the jurisdiction of 'people', or to be more elaborate 'human beings'. A location does not take away someones humanity, nor does it give license for treating people horribly.

DA

I believe in being polite, being courteous, treating people with respect and dignity. This is something that I wish society as a whole still remembered how to do. You really don't see a lot of it in this day and age. Everything is so... in your face, so hostile.

Maybe if you were white, attractive, straight, rich, and gender-conforming, 'old' society treated you well. Works like Pride and Prejudice, Dickens, and the Cranford series point out that 'society' has never been about treating people with respect if it could possibly look down on a group of people for some reason or another. That may be a personal creed of yours, and well done if you actually adhere to it, but don't kid yourself that it's historically been the case.

Excellent point.

I'm hispanic, lower-middle class and a strong, independent female who brings in her own income and doesn't define myself by my husband... none of that has anything to do with how I treat people. Bottom line, there is no excuse for poor manners, period. Uhura was far more rude than the situation called for, thus she rubbed me the wrong way. Doesn't matter if people in the past have been judgmental or not, read what I said about people needing to be treated on a case to case basis. Our behavior, our actions, if you will, is what defines us. And I still feel the world would be a better place if people were kinder to one another.

You're overreacting and reaching. Handle that.

No, you're being judgmental. You don't get to tell me I'm overreacting and you don't get to dictate how people should feel. Nor do you get to tell people which characters they should warm up to or not. My first point was to point out that people could have been turned off by Uhura for reasons other than race and gender. Since then I've had to defend that perspective and have done so. Its not 'overreacting' because you don't agree with me. You're trying to minimalize my perspective and I do not appreciate it.

You need to handle someone have an opinion that differs from your own.

Oh come off it! You are overreacting so hard.

How entitled are you to minimalize my perspective as an over reaction because it differs from your own. News flash, you don't get to tell me how to feel and you don't get to trivialize those feelings. I find rude behavior offensive. You deal with that.

Generalizing, however, is an unhealthy practice.

What you call generalizing, I call erring on the side of caution.

Uhura didn't shove him to the ground and spit on him and she didn't call him a piece of shit. She told him in no uncertain terms she wasn't interested. If assertive equals rude, then I'm okay with that.

thus we're not going to agree on this

We can agree on this, at least.

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