Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
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fandomsecrets2012-03-23 07:01 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2012-03-23 07:01 pm
[ SECRET POST #1907 ]
⌈ Secret Post #1907 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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[Disney's Gargoyles]
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[X-Men: First Class]
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[keanu reeves]
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[keanu reeves]
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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]
11. [SPOILERS for Death Note]
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12. [SPOILERS for Kuragehime]
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13. [SPOILERS for The Walking Dead]
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14. [SPOILERS for Supernatural]
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15. [SPOILERS for Mass Effect 3]
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16. [SPOILERS for Mass Effect 3]
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17. [SPOILERS for Mass Effect 3]
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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]
18. [TRIGGER WARNING for sexual abuse]
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19. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]
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20. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #272.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - hit/ship/spiration ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
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(Anonymous) 2012-03-24 05:49 am (UTC)(link)It seems pretty clear to me that she wasn't supporting her mother - her mother was pretty self-sufficient. Her mother was still a tailor (or whatever you want to call it). Tiana was working two jobs because she wanted more. It's made pretty explicit that she had enough to get what she needed.
of course she had to work like crazy, dream or no
She was working like crazy for what she wanted.
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It's made pretty explicit that she had enough to get what she needed.
So the message was, don't worry so much about what you want because you already have what you need. That's fine, but like I said, there was far too little emphasis on the downsides of prioritizing work over family and friends for me to buy that moral.
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(Anonymous) 2012-03-24 07:43 am (UTC)(link)Um... I see this nowhere in the movie? In addition, it's heavily implied that Theodora is still making dresses for Lottie, whereas Tiana is either supporting herself, or living under her mother's roof, either way a second job seems to for the sole purpose of making money for the restaurant.
Tiana's restaurant came off as more than just a personal dream to me, it was a means to improve her quality of life.
I can see that, but I also feel like the movie implied it was mainly a personal dream.
Which is another thing I didn't like - it's only great to wax poetic about how money doesn't matter when you have enough to be comfortable.
Well, comfort is extremely subjective, but considering she had enough to get a costume for the Masquerade ball, I guess I'm under the impression that she wasn't hurting. She didn't have enough for many luxuries, but it's not like she was on the brink of starvation either.
there was far too little emphasis on the downsides of prioritizing work over family and friends for me to buy that moral.
I think the strongest condemnation was also the most subtle. When Tiana and her mom are touring the old mill she says "I got to make sure all that hard work means something," as opposed to her father's work not meaning anything because he never got the mill, even though he provided for his family, etc.
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I guess I'm under the impression that she wasn't hurting. She didn't have enough for many luxuries, but it's not like she was on the brink of starvation either.
Even if she wasn't on the street, the film went through some trouble to contrast her family's status and Lottie's. I don't know what the point of that was if not to emphasize Tiana's financial difficulties, especially since Lottie's wealth had no downsides. Because of that and the fact that Tiana didn't worship money to begin with, I didn't understand the emphasis on not worshiping money (in Mama Odie's song in particular).
When Tiana and her mom are touring the old mill she says "I got to make sure all that hard work means something," as opposed to her father's work not meaning anything even though he provided for his family,
That's an interesting catch, I missed that. That I did, though, is my point. Bits like that (including Tiana's crowning moment of awesome in rejecting Facilier's deal when realizing her father's life wasn't wasted) are overshadowed by the focus on the relationship with Naveen, instead of Tiana's relationship with her family.
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(Anonymous) 2012-03-24 04:27 pm (UTC)(link)I don't know. It's unclear. She was surprised to see her mother at the mill.
Tiana's second job was to invest in a restaurant which, if successful, I assumed would bring in a larger income than the two menial jobs she and her mother had, possibly even allowing her mother to stop working altogether.
I can see that, but it was also heavily implied that she was in it for the love of cooking, not for financial reasons.
I don't know what the point of that was if not to emphasize Tiana's financial difficulties, especially since Lottie's wealth had no downsides.
I think that is was important to show New Orleans as a varied city, and I don't think you would have been happy if they had completely swept the poverty of the black community round about the turn of the century under the rug. I think it was also in large part to show why she focused on hard work. She wasn't getting everything handed to her on a silver platter.
Because of that and the fact that Tiana didn't worship money to begin with, I didn't understand the emphasis on not worshiping money (in Mama Odie's song in particular).
...Because Naveen did and there were two main characters? The first verse is about Naveen's money obsession, but Tiana's half and big finale was all about her tunnel vision.
Bits like that (including Tiana's crowning moment of awesome in rejecting Facilier's deal when realizing her father's life wasn't wasted) are overshadowed by the focus on the relationship with Naveen, instead of Tiana's relationship with her family.
Because working hard is a good thing, just not in extremis for something you don't 'need' (which is where she was taking it). You also don't want to have her be an unappealing character and screaming at her mother is a great way to lose her appeal and make her seem immature (compare to Ariel who does yell at Triton, and is a lot less mature). It could have been nice to she her relationship with her family more, but it's hard to make a believable movie where a lower class American woman could legitimately fall in love and marry a European prince, and I do think it was important to make her a real princess instead of a girl in a pretty dress. No one wants an asterisk next to the only black princess's name.
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This is why I felt Disney shot themselves in the foot by setting the story in 1920s New Orleans in the first place. Tiana never had a chance to have a story free of class and racial bullshit. Disney stayed loyal to limitations they never had to set to begin with, for reasons I may never understand (to exploit jazz music for the soundtrack is my first theory, but then they could have used Harlem much better for that, and with fewer problematic stereotypes like rednecks and voodoo).
...Because Naveen did and there were two main characters?
Oh, whoops, I misinterpreted the song, my apologies.
You also don't want to have her be an unappealing character and screaming at her mother is a great way to lose her appeal and make her seem immature
She didn't need to go that far. She just needed to be slightly more visibly flawed, which could have been covered by just one scene of her work interfering with her relationships.
It could have been nice to she her relationship with her family more, but it's hard to make a believable movie where a lower class American woman could legitimately fall in love and marry a European prince, and I do think it was important to make her a real princess instead of a girl in a pretty dress.
See my first bit about Disney shooting themselves in the foot. Why couldn't Naveen have been an African prince? Hell, why couldn't Tiana have been a African princess of a fantasy kingdom based off Kush, Ashanti, Yoruba? Or Disney-fy the Greek Andromeda myth (the princess and her parents were Ethiopian)? People of black descent don't lack for a rich history of royalty and fairytales, so copypasting a black woman into a European fairytale with a European prince in modern America was just...kind of a waste of a great opportunity.
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That's what I wondered! I would have loved to see a fantasy kingdom based off of somewhere we don't get to see in movies very often (i.e., anywhere that isn't Europe).
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(Anonymous) 2012-03-24 07:25 pm (UTC)(link)Because I think it would have been worse to not show it? People would still be complaining that Disney didn't make a black princess and that it tried to side-step all the issues, etc.
She didn't need to go that far. She just needed to be slightly more visibly flawed, which could have been covered by just one scene of her work interfering with her relationships.
Well, they did have that, just not in any significant way, which I agree would have been a lot better.
Why couldn't Naveen have been an African prince? Hell, why couldn't Tiana have been a African princess of a fantasy kingdom based off Kush, Ashanti, Yoruba? Or Disney-fy the Greek Andromeda myth (the princess and her parents were Ethiopian)? People of black descent don't lack for a rich history of royalty and fairytales, so copypasting a black woman into a European fairytale with a European prince in modern America was just...kind of a waste of a great opportunity.
Personally I think that it would be avoiding the issue in a sweeping-it-under-the-rug way. People would be all about how Disney would never have a black American character, etc. Also, I have a feeling they would get some flack for having the "ethnic Barbie" thing. In western cultures only white girls are special, etc. There's also a hell of a lot of issue that they dodge by avoiding the African continent, in particular making her seem tribal or by dodging the issue and making her Egyptian which is often considered part of "Western culture" too.
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(Anonymous) 2012-03-24 07:29 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
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(Anonymous) 2012-03-24 10:58 pm (UTC)(link)Also, there were only maybe 4 human living male characters if you stretch it and half of them are evil.
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(Anonymous) 2012-03-26 07:08 am (UTC)(link)I like that Disney is having a lot more ethnically diverse characters, including multi-racial ones, but that may be a reflection of coming from a family where I think we have members of a lot of different races.
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Considering Disney has so few American characters of any color in the vast majority of their animated canon and that doesn't seem to bother anyone, I sincerely doubt this.
There's also a hell of a lot of issue that they dodge by avoiding the African continent, in particular making her seem tribal or by dodging the issue and making her Egyptian which is often considered part of "Western culture" too.
That so many people really do seem to feel that drawing and/or writing fantasy with African characters is a choice between Egypt and tribes in the bush makes me so sad that I could not begin to express it. What I would give for an animated movie that finally blows that erroneous perception out of the water. Maybe some are out there and I need to stop expecting Western animators to provide it. To be honest, of all animation companies, Disney is the one I'd trust least to do it right. So maybe it's for the best.
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(Anonymous) 2012-03-24 11:03 pm (UTC)(link)I thought it did, but I'm willing to concede. I just see a lot of people saying that they tried to avoid having a black character by turning Tiana into a frog for most of the movie, and while I would have liked to see her human more, I disagree with that.
That so many people really do seem to feel that drawing and/or writing fantasy with African characters is a choice between Egypt and tribes in the bush makes me so sad that I could not begin to express it.
Are there other example that you'd share of African cultures that don't fit those? I'd be very interested! I looked up Kush, but that's very similar to Egyptian in my very limited opinion.
Maybe some are out there and I need to stop expecting Western animators to provide it. To be honest, of all animation companies, Disney is the one I'd trust least to do it right. So maybe it's for the best.
I wish they would do something with the songs from the Aida musical, but wishful thinking!
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I don't think making Tiana a frog for so long was a "lol we hate black people" move, but it seemed like a really baffling and unnecessary divergence from their other princesses.
Are there other example that you'd share of African cultures that don't fit those? I'd be very interested! I looked up Kush, but that's very similar to Egyptian in my very limited opinion.
Cultures, there's too many to count. Kingdoms, the Kushite empire is my personal favorite, but if you just wanted to veer away from North Africa entirely, there's the Oyo, Benin, and Nri empires in West Africa, Kongo empire in Central Africa and the Mutapa empire in the South, among others. I've only just started researching (for a fantasy world I want to build), but there were a bunch of pre-colonial kingdoms across the continent. Wikipedia has piss-poor organization of all of them, but this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_empires) is an okay place to start.
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(Anonymous) 2012-03-26 07:12 am (UTC)(link)Thank you for your examples! I'm definitely checking them out!
While I didn't say anything above, a lot of these kingdoms seem to have their best wear with a lot of patterns/texture. That's extremely problematic for traditional animation (though would be fine with CG).
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