fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1967 ]

[ SECRET POST #1967 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1967 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 051 secrets from Secret Submission Post #281.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
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France is... special. For example school girls who happen to be Muslims can't wear the hijab in school, stuff like that.

If I recall you can't even wear a cross necklace to school or something unobtrusive like that? NO RELIGION RELATED THINGS AT ALL.

Yuuuup. The crazy really hit the fan back in the 90s. The sad part? The government thought (and still thinks) that they're doing a favor to everyone with this "no religion" BS. I'm an atheist, but I hate this kind of attitude. Having a religion isn't a crime.
(And then for example Finland followed this example to an extent: students are allowed to wear what they want, but singing Christmas songs in schools during Christmas isn't allowed anymore, because not everyone is a Christian. Monkey see, monkey do.)

I can understand really, hugely blatant religious messages being prohibited (like t-shirts with certain text), but small things like hijab or a crucifix necklace? It's just really strange to me.

And then for example Finland followed this example to an extent: students are allowed to wear what they want, but singing Christmas songs in schools during Christmas isn't allowed anymore, because not everyone is a Christian. Monkey see, monkey do.

That might be the case in some schools, for example in Helsinki where there are more immigrants, but it's definitely not a norm. There is no law to ban Christmas carols or other Christian tradition from schools.

Thanks for the info!

Oh please. I'm Finnish and just a few years back I got into trouble at school for not wanting to attend christmas church. I also live in Helsinki and not some backwards town.

There's a shift toward not forcing people who are not christian to participate in christmas related thing but that's just a good thing IMO. Christmas songs aren't going to be banned anytime soon.

I used to go to school in Helsinki as well, and for a while our school didn't have mandatory Christmas church back when people were still undecided about the whole thing; we did have the traditional assembly in the school hall, though, and almost all Christmas songs were left out (temporarily). This was some years ago, and I know it was only temporary, so I understand things have changed a bit.

Thanks for the up-to-date info.

I think they can wear it in private schools but I'm not sure. Public schools don't allow it, because they are lay schools and the rules apply to everyone, not just Muslims. IF you can hide it under your clothes, you can wear a necklace with a small cross or a small Hamsa, or whatever else. IF you can hide it. No religious things and no political things in school (as in: wearing a shirt that promotes a political party? No sir).

Ooh, I didn't know that. Thanks for clarifying. (I haven't been to France in quite a while and I never heard about this.)

You're welcome!

A tiny part of me agrees with this in theory, since two of the biggest no no topics of discussion tend to be religion and politics, so I can see why they'd want to try and keep that out of a place of learning in order to lessen potential animosity, but at the same time, I couldn't imagine wanting to tell someone they had to disregard their religion's way of dress in order to go to school, especially since in the case of Muslims, the hair covering is a very serious thing to them, that they can't show their hair to any man of "potential marriagability" if I'm remembering what my Muslim friend told me correctly. Ignoring the fact that marriagability is completely not a word. XD

This. My understanding - correct me if I'm wrong - is that wearing the hijab is a question of modesty, not necessarily of religious devotion. Telling people that they can't wear it because it's a visible sign of religion seems like it's going a little far IMO.

That being said, I don't know anything about the repercussions this decision has had on French society. Does anyone have any insight they would like to share?

I don't have any specific examples of repercussions, but I think it's really just continuing to fuel the tensions between Muslim and non-Muslim French - it's certainly not bringing anyone together. When I was there I noticed a distinct amount of social segregation.

:-( That's unfortunate. Looks like it had the opposite effect of what was intended in that case. Thanks for the info!

It's not really a problem in schools, not anymore. There are some people who disagree with it, but they're not necessarily Muslims: some Catholics are being really vocal with what children are being taught, the latest tiff was over the new biology curriculum that said that gender was socially constructed (in the end, the Catholics lost), the one before that was over a cartoon for elementary schoolchildren explaining what homosexuality was (in the end, I don't think the cartoon was made available in schools and it wasn't part of the curriculum). No religion related things also means that the influence of religious groups over curriculums is very limited.
(Curriculums are the same in public and private schools and they're the same all over the country by the way)

I know of a (formerly jesuit, now public) high school with a church just next door: two years ago, Good Friday was the last day of school just before spring break. In this high school, the students traditionally dress up and wear all sorts of disguises for fun on the friday before spring break. But two years ago, some Catholics started going off on the high school, saying that they should be ashamed to play dress up on Good Friday with a church nearby etc... The then headmistress was rather conservative and almost agreed to cancel that carnival day. In the end, the teachers and the students managed to put enough pressure on her so that she refused to cancel.

However, there are some tensions between French Muslims and non-Muslims, fueled by the previous President's really offensive speeches (then again, his speeches were offensive to everyone who did not worship him). I'm hoping that the new President will appease those tensions...

Someday I hope that religious controversy will be a thing of the past. Maybe someday...

Thanks for the info, anon! :-)

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-05-24 11:29 (UTC) - Expand

Yeah, the problem is that the cross can be worn under the clothes, and the hijab can't.

The rules may be designed to protect everyone equally, but they don't APPLY to everyone equally. And that's an issue.

Well, the Hamsa is not a Christian symbol...

I think the problem is that it can be distressing not to wear it.

It's not the same as just wearing a necklace, which one could wear because they feel like displaying a religious symbol, it's something a Muslim girl feels commanded to wear.

I know I'd feel horribly uncomfortable and naked without my hijab. I'd probably opt for wearing a hat and long-sleeved clothing or anything else to cover up the parts that hijab's supposed to cover, if there's no way to wear a headscarf...

Off topic but I always like reading your comments because OOOOOH MR DARCY + Tom of Finland icon cracks me up for some reason

Edited 2012-05-23 03:27 (UTC)

Ty!

Yeah, your comments are pretty awesome and I really like the opinions you express but your icon kind of cracks me up too. Just looks so serious while his shirt's undone and it's just funny somehow to me.

No idea what it's from, but yeah!

Oh, it's a drawing? And here I thought it was a photograph or something!

Sure is pretty.

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