fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #193 ]

Not exactly, but in many ways the bible's views and positive views on those things are (although that does vary in how much so between each of the afore-mentioned forms of bigotry.

But um..although no-one's got nasty or anything, I still think it's a very bad idea to have a religious debate here. ^^;

Your first sentence is just so... man, I don't even know where to start. So I won't.

But here is something else:

The secret is one that deals with religion. People are commenting agreeing with said secret. So... one person expresses distaste with the secret and... what? That's not sparking a religious debate anymore than comments agreeing with the secret are. That's just someone saying "um gurl what is u doin." So it just seems extremely silly to me that you are trying to quash dear anon's comment on those grounds, when I don't see you doing that to any other comments to the secret. Or saying that to the original secret maker!

As to my first sentence, I'm not talking out of nowhere, I can paraphrase to back it up. Maybe what I'm doing wrong is that I'm taking 'one of two' segments in the bible the wrong way. But just as with people, if they state there opinion as being well...that, then I'm disinclined to hear what else they have to say.

As to your last comment, that's fair enough. You're right. The main reason why I sited that one was because of the 'anon' label, the other would be personal. ~~Pretty much them talking about how forgiving the bible is, when it's already condemned me to hell. So yeah, I was (unfairly?) taking it personally.~~

It's forgiving if you repent and apologize and stop whatever you're doing and listen to them? Or something like that. THERE'S ALWAYS TIME MEND YOUR SINFUL WAYS AND WE'LL ACCEPT YOU BACK RIGHTEOUSLY AND STUFF ETC

I'll take Hell!

~~I HEAR THAT'S WHERE ALL THE BEST PARTIES ARE! =D~~

Let me preface this comment by saying that I am not religious by any stretch of the imagination,. And if you're going to pull out the Martyr Meter of Religion, I feel obligated to let you know that I am a lesbian. O SNAP. CONDEMNED TO HELL?!

I still find your comments ignorant.

Argh, that came out wrong. Then again, would you have preferred that I'd bullshitted and pretended it wasn't a personal thing?

And btw? You defeated your own point by feeling the need to point out you're gay. It's a problem if I say that but it's okay if you do?

It's not martyrdom, that would be if I was saying 'OMGTHE BIBLE ISH SO MEEN TOO MEE!!!', I used to be religous until I read enough of it to think otherwise. It's based on very outdated ideas when it comes down to it.

But then again, judging by your last comment and your ignoring my 'I'd rather not discuss this for fear of wank' comment just makes me think you wanted to argue with someone.

I was just showing you that being gay isn't a good reason for bitterness, bb. I wasn't disproving anyone's points, mine or yours. I prefer to love everyone with open arms. I know a lot of people with issues with religion--even religious people!!!1--but to use those issues to validate painting an entire faith (well, several different faiths actually) with many different people in it as uniformly anti-gay, anti-woman, and anti-diversity is just. Ew.

Not everyone sees their faith the same way. And not everyone reads the bible in the same way.

And no, lol, I don't want to argue. But I'm doing it anyway because I think that you are being silly.

Woah woah woah, I never said that I think every follower of a religion agrees with everything in it...and if you interpreted what I said as that, then I can understand you being pissed off. ._.

As I've said in other places in this convo, the bible has some very dated ideas about some things, even if for the most part it's ideas/principals are good. I personally didn't want to stay religious and only follow the parts, not the whole, but I'm fully aware that many people do.

I can only hope that it's been a cleared up misunderstanding, hence why I'm not going to reply to your last sentence right now.

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moebot.livejournal.com - 2007-07-18 00:00 (UTC) - Expand

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kurenai-tenka.livejournal.com - 2007-07-18 00:04 (UTC) - Expand

I was just showing you that being gay isn't a good reason for bitterness, bb.

I don't know, in the context of Christianity and the violence against us associated with the religion, is seems plenty reason to me.

(clarification: against the RELIGION, not all people who practice it)

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kurenai-tenka.livejournal.com - 2007-07-18 12:17 (UTC) - Expand

Swinging in late here (lol watching Star Wars), but while oftentimes the people who follow a religion take it to retarded levels, it does not mean the basic belief system of the religion is wrong. I assume you are talking about something inane like shellfish or homosexuality, and not say, murder, and I do not personally believe that my God would send someone to eternal damnation for that. Hell, even murderers are allowed to repent. Jesus was a cool dude, and was all about forgiveness and helping one other. It's mortals who screwed it up.

Anyway, I'm not trying to convert you, and I admit my first comment was combative, but having my God placed in the same breath as Light is not exactly a positive thing.

~ petrushka

(haha, Star Wars. ^^)

I must say, I'm very glad you've been civil, and that you've agreed with me somewhat about your first comment. ^^; I agree that the bible does have many good things in it, and that most of the time people take it too far themselves. I mean, although I can't personally agree with the bible in it's entirety, I think people need to remember that some of the idea's in it are very dated, and..let's see, god doesn't want you to beat up gays etc.
Jesus was cool. XD Mainly because I love the musical. <3 And also, if the things mentioned in the bible really happened, then the afore mentioned bigoted comments in it should really be blamed on the writers/transcribers/translators etc etc that have intervened over the years, not the god/son/holy spirit/whatnot. When you think about it, who knows how much got changed. ._.

As for Light, well, I don't think he was going the right way about world order at all. ^^;

(apparently Darth Vader is Luke's father? who knew?)

Mm, it's just important to remember that the most outspoken do not represent the whole. Christianity (and many many many other religions) is founded on very decent, worthy principles, and it is very disappointing when people choose to ignore that fact for the minute, severely outdated details. While I know I am certainly not in danger of oppression cause I'm a Christian, it's a little disheartening to see it pulled through the dirt in so many fandom discussions.

And on your mention of translations, there are many interesting theological issues with those- including the fact that much of the concept of the afterlife is artificially constructed- but that's for another time. :)

Anyway, I hope you can understand why I was upset at the secret.

(for real? =O)

I think that as with many things, it's just 'certain people' spoiling it for others. Where as 99% or Christians are likely very nice people, there's that 1% of extremists, who in a lot of cases just want to fight over something...which just gives everyone else a bad wrap. I suppose it's very relatable to how many people tar all Muslims with the same brush as the 9/11 bombers, and other extremists.

That's quite interesting. =) Actually the whole 'lost in translation' issue has got me thinking. ^_^ I may look into such issues.

I can understand. I can also understand that it came out a little aggressive because it's something that's important to you, just as I did when I replied. ^^; I don't exactly agree with the secret itself anyway. ^^;
No hard feelings. ^_^

Just going to say, the people commenting agreeing with said secret were just kinda, "IAWTC," not "anyone that disagrees is an idiot." This one sounded a lot more like "IF YOU AGREE WITH THIS YOU'RE AN IDIOT LOL FINE KEEP BEING AN IDIOT"

Kind of a big difference there. ):

I hope I'm not asking for trouble by saying it here, but thanks. You put that far better than I did.

I'm actually not seeing any "anyone that agrees is an idiot" in the original anon comment, just someone expressing frustration at an oversimplification of something that is very important to them. But then again, not everyone perceives internet sentences the same way ~:o~

Anyway, the original secret was sort of smug in its "lol, serial killer with a notebook = God, but better; booo religion" tone, which I found infinitely more grating than the anon's ATTITUDE!!!1 problem, which yeah, was there. So most "iawtc"s I would assume are agreeing with the sentiment as well as what is explicitly stated, because... otherwise why would people agree with it amirite.

So no, I don't think it's a big difference ):

Ok. (:

Meh. Nothing wrong with a little theological discussion, if people want to have one--every conversation about 'important' subjects or which may get heated or about which people may become passionate, needn't/shouldn't be dismissed as 'wank', IMO. I suppose it may be a bit silly of me to worry about 'dumbing-down' something as light-hearted as an lj-secret comm, but still--why must we be so cautious about when and where we discuss things that are *worth* discussing?

I know it isn't necessarily going to turn to wank, I'm just terrified it will. ^^; Although no-one here seems stupid or aggressive, I've already got some snide comments and implications that I'm stupid because of my opinion...and that's the kind of thing that could turn to wank.

That, and tbh I personally don't want to have a debate about the subject, especially when it's a 'me vs them' situation. ^^;

Not exactly, but in many ways the bible's views and positive views on those things are (although that does vary in how much so between each of the afore-mentioned forms of bigotry.

That really depends on each individual's personal interpretation of the Bible. It never actually spells out that "being gay is a horrible, horrible sin and you're going straight to hell if you are," people just interpret the stories and morals and warnings that way.

P.S. Leviticus also condemns bunnies and wearing certain types of materials together and mixing up crops, among other things and those are just as ridiculous.

~~...I know you from somewhere (not personally, assumably fandom or something), but I can't think where. ^^;~~

Yeaaah, there was recently a comment made by a high-up religious person that that part was meant to 'almost certainly' refer to paedophilia, not homosexuality in general. ^^ I was quite pleased with that. ^^;

I think the part in the bible people tend to quote is the 'if one man lies with another like he would with a woman' yada yada bit.
Actually, I think a lot of the people who say 'OMG THE BIBLE SEZ ITZ BAD!' wouldn't know anything to actually quote.

And yeah, I saw an avatar listing all those, it was great. XD

We're both in CLAMP fandom; I've seen you on

clamp_rants often. I've stayed out lately, though.

Most of those quotes are taken out of context, anyway; for example, Sodom was burned because of inhospitality, not homosexuality. Also, a lot of the Bible's lessons are really outdated, which is why people nowadays tend to discount them, like with Leviticus. Why discount some and leave others, I have no idea.

That's the one. Is there some reason for you staying out?

It's a shame everyone doesn't see it that way. u.u Although I'd love to hear an adulterer or similar try to badmouth gays on account of the bible.
Then again, murderers etc do so all the time. ^^;

CLAMP fandom scares the shit out of me; and I've become increasingly dissatisfied with their works as of late. I thought it best to stay away.

Yes, well, hypocrisy has always been one of our worst shortcomings.