[ SECRET POST #2005 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2005 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.


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06. [nf]


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08. http://i.imgur.com/H1X1Z.gif
[linked because uh not sure if this is porn or not; live action]


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09. http://i.imgur.com/pNcu1.jpg
[porn of the drawn variety - Tintin]


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10.


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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]











11. [SPOILER WARNING for Hourou Musuko]



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12. [SPOILER WARNING for Prometheus]



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13. [SPOILER WARNING for Homestuck]



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14. [SPOILER WARNING for Avengers]



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15. [SPOILER WARNING for Merlin]



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16. [SPOILER WARNING for Tangled]



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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]












17. [WARNING for ... pretty sure this has something to do with rape]



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18. [WARNING for rape]



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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #286.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Basically this.

Heaven forbid he be a sarcastic asshole with PTSD in addition to being a hero who helps save the world.

But I guarantee if he were a boy scout, everyone would complain about how boring he is.

[tabaqui]

Pretty much this.

My UK friend tells me he was a bit more abrasive in the comics but movie!Tony is pretty damn neat. And really - is he *really* an asshole, even? He finds out in passing that Coulson's cellist has moved back to Portland and suddenly in a scene we have him offering to fly Coulson to Portland! I mean...that's pretty damn nice. I dunno. I just don't get the 'person who is to be hated' vibe from movie!Tony at all.

[got_swagger]

I think he can come across as an asshole, from the way he talks and acts from time to time. But ultimately, he's not too bad.

He's super arrogant, but even then that gets tempered by the people around him like Pepper (♥) and even JARVIS, who is basically PROGRAMMED by Tony to argue with Tony.

[tabaqui]

Ah ha ha! I love that Jarvis will take him down a notch and he *put that there*. Or, at the very least, the possibility of it, and didn't 'fix' it when it started to happen.

[(Anonymous)]

You know how some fandoms' Fridge Brilliance can be kind of sickening and recast the characters' actions in a pretty nasty light? Iron Man is the opposite -- the more you think and reason about the various aspects of Tony Stark and the characters' relationships and motives, the more adorable and awesome it is.

[tabaqui]

I have never heard of that before but i like it. And yay! :)

[intrigueing.livejournal.com]

I've always been certain that Jarvis was an AI that developed from something more basic to his present form through learning and experience and stuff. I mean, Tony's a genius, so I could see him figuring out how to create an AI with the capability to grow and learn, but he's only one person, and no way could he sit down and program an AI with all of Jarvis' social abilities. I mean, Jarvis can improvise and make guesses and use common sense, to make suggestions for situations that have no protocol (like asking if Tony wanted to call Pepper before he died), etc. Plus, no way is Tony going to put that much trust in something with rigid enough programing to go HAL 9000.

[tabaqui]

I think you're right.

[(Anonymous)]

NA I think JARVIS's social capabilities are vastly exaggerated by fandom. I know he was almost sentient in the novelization, but the novelization was different enough about both events and characterization of other players, to be an alternate verse of its own, and in what we've seen of the movie-verse so far, he's a brilliant AI, programmed to be sarcastic and make some decisions of his/its own, but I really don't think he's anywhere near actual sentience.

[intrigueing.livejournal.com]

I disagree with the assessment of his abilities in the movieverse (there was a great lj entry somewhere I can't remember that discussed the little details of his characterization really well), but also...just because the movieverse doesn't show the complete range and extent of his abilities doesn't mean they aren't there? It's not like the movie showed Jarvis's limitations, it's simply that Jarvis had a minor role in the movies and wasn't exactly explored in great detail. So what fanon comes up with doesn't contradict anything in the movies (or even put things in a new light, like the dumb fanon defense of woobie!Loki as "well, we don't actually know that he wasn't abused as a kid!"), it just expands on and deepens what we saw and what could possibly be inferred.

Put it this way -- if Iron Man 3 shows Jarvis as very explicitly sentient, no one would notice a change from his characterization in Iron Man 1 or 2, or the Avengers, they would just be more aware of it.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

just because the movieverse doesn't show the complete range and extent of his abilities doesn't mean they aren't there?
Well of course. But it doesn't mean that they are either. Fanon posits that JARVIS can and does sometimes act against explicit orders and own make decisions. I've watched the movies with JARVIS' sentience/sapience in mind, and not once does this happen. Sure it doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't, but it does put atleast as much weight (and I think a bit more, given the tropes of an AI in every other bit of real and fictional media) in the column of 'yeah, not happening'.

To put it in a similar analogy to yours - in Iron Man 3 explicitly reveals that Stane subtly sexually abused Tony as a teenager, there would be no need for a change in his actions in IM1 needed to fit that revelation. We'd just be more aware of the creep-factor. But that doesn't mean that it's canon or true that this happened in movieverse at all. I'd be really interested in that article if you can find it! But from what I've seen I remain as unconvinced of JARVIS's sapience as I am of the fact that Steve Rogers is a technologically helpless blushing ingenue.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm curious as to what the movies actually show that gives you the impression that JARVIS isn't sapient. From what I can recall, all of his dialogue makes him seem pretty much indistinguishable from a human being except in his lack of a physical form, use of technical language, and ability to do all kinds of cool shit.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

Hah, that's a really strange way to put it. Wouldn't the better question be "what the movies actually show that gives you the impression that JARVIS IS sapient?" Given that JARVIS is supposed to be an advanced AI in a world with superpowers, one would expect some features more than what is present in AI in our own mundane world. But to prove that an inanimate object or system has gained a characteristic of a living thing, shouldn't the burden of proof be on 'why do you think this robot/AI is sapient' rather than 'why you think it isn't?", when the answer to the latter is a simple: "it is not a thing which is generally sapient, it is not stated to be sapient and so far it has not exhibited any behavior which posits that it is sapient as opposed to well-programmed."

As far as I know JARVIS has so far not done anything for himself/itself, has never in fact, contradicted any order given by Tony, in fact, it just sounds very human and is able to replicate a sense of humor. I don't really think that makes it 'human'.

So, what in the movies gives you the impression that JARVIS is sapient? Cause snark ain't it, for me.

[(Anonymous)]

Whether Jarvis is sentient or not, I think he's damn good at predicting Tony's behaviors and knowing Tony's emotional state. In the Avengers, he powered up Tony's boots a few seconds before Tony told him to do so, and later on, suggested Tony to make his last call to Pepper.

Recs?

[(Anonymous)]

Does anyone have fic recs for Avengers fic from, like, Jarvis's POV, or something that deals with Jarvis' relationship with Tony and how his mind works or something? Because now I'm really curious...

Re: Recs?

[intrigueing.livejournal.com]

Oooh! One of my favorite fics of all time -- seriously, the second installment is the only fic I've ever read that has made me actually tear up -- is the three-part "Deus Ex" series (http://archiveofourown.org/series/18821) by icarus_chained. It is simply amazing, incredibly intelligent and thoughtful and just has all the feels too.

There's also The Evaluation Process (http://archiveofourown.org/works/447243) which is about Jarvis dealing with Tony's death.

And this non-kink kinkmeme fill about Jarvis's opinions of all the team-members: http://avengerkink.livejournal.com/1854.html?thread=42046#t42046

Re: Recs?

[dancing_serpent]

Safeword by melannen
Probably my favourite. It has Tony/others at first, then Steve/Tony and Steve/Tony/Jarvis (in a way)

[intrigueing.livejournal.com]

Yeah -- Tony's demeanor and attitude is leagues more assholish than any of his actual actions. He doesn't do things that make you go "what a dick!", he just acts like the type of person who people would expect to do dickish things.

I've mentioned this once before to a friend -- Tony's basically the diametric opposite of Charles Xavier in X-Men First Class. They both qualify as a Jerk With A Heart Of Gold, but Charles is a good-spirited and morally-conscious and idealistic guy who keeps engaging in random acts of face-palming dickery in a totally nice way; while Tony is an extremely abrasive and irritating and assholish guy who keeps doing amazingly great and selfless and sweet things in a totally rude way.

[tabaqui]

I don't know enough about Xavier to say yes or no, but that's pretty interesting. :)

[fae_boleyn]

Oh my God. I never thought of the Tony vs. XMFC!Xavier one, but... You make a very good point. Although Tony is at least aware of the effects of his actions, even if he pretends not to be. Charles has this huge blind spot to when he's being a dick, generally.

[alexi_lupin]

omg I love this comment.

[(Anonymous)]

OP
That's my problem. My favorite characters are usually combination of sarcastic assholes with mental issues such as PTSD, because they aren't boring. For some reason I just have strong dislike of Tony Stark.

[insanenoodlyguy]

Could it be the alcoholism? It's subtle in the movies compared to the comics, but it's still there.

[intrigueing.livejournal.com]

This seems perfectly natural and fine to me -- maybe he just pings something on your radar that consistently rubs you the wrong way. I also have certain fictional characters that I have no reason to hate and who I actually would describe as good and likable people, but who I just can't stand to watch or read about because they set my teeth on edge for some indefinable reason.

But if you want to learn to like him, I'd recommend you try and read some good fic about him. I can't count the number of characters I fell in love with because a great fic made something just click into place in my brain and make me "get it".

[(Anonymous)]

Thirding the "I would normally like this type of character but I can't with this specific one" sentiment.

It's probably something subconscious, the kind of thing that is registered deep in your mind but that you don't actively remember.

I also second the read some good fic recommendation. Sometimes seeing the character's mind through someone's eyes can help you see aspects of the character that you were overlooking and come to like them more.

If you want to, that is! No one should force you to like something or someone you don't.