[ SECRET POST #2007 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2007 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 06 pages, 111 secrets from Secret Submission Post #287.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 - text secret ], [ 1 - empty image ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I disagree. I freely call myself a feminist and it has nothing to do with being involved with "part of a movement", and everything to do with believing women should have the equal rights of men and genders should be treated equally etc etc etc.

But then I'm not sure how you'd qualify being part of the movement. I mean, I live my life by my own values and those values do include feminism.

If you don't want to be a feminist, that's fine. I tend to think people who aren't feminists or humanists are just refusing because of backlash from popular depictions of extremists, or that they dont' really understand what feminism is about.

[stainless]

To me, being part of a movement is doing work to further its goals. My job involves activism for disability rights, so I'm in the happy situation of my activism and my professional life merging together. It's nice when a day at work can be going to the protest! :-)

But simply to say "I live my life according to these values" and never to have marched, or stood in front of the County board, or met with state legislators, or headed to the Hill -- well, at one time I might have said someone can do nothing but have the values and I'd call them a member of the movement. But after spending years devoting so much time and effort to the movement of my choice, I'm a bit disillusioned with people whose hearts are in the right place but who don't do the work.

Of course there are a lot of ways to do the work and not all of them are direct action. I'd call the people who run several blogs that actually have large followings part of the movement. It's not about specific things.

But I'm disillusioned with people who occasionally blog about things now and then, or who read major blogs and nod in agreement, or who participate in heated comment threads and little else. I don't question the person's values, but I do question whether the person is someone who really works for change or just a good person with a good heart.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

I see "feminist" and "feminist activist" like "Democrat/Republican" and "Democrat/Republican activist"

You can be a Democrat/Republican without taking an action, simply by registering for your party of choice. If anybody asks you, you can say you are one and you support the movement passively simply by giving it numbers. If asked, any of those "non-actives" you described would self-identify as feminists, and would help in that way

[stainless]

That makes sense. I sit corrected, I suppose. :-)

But I still have to say I find the whole "You're one of us regardless of whether you say so!" thing totally bizarre. I mean, if someone strongly supported causes, issues, and legislation backed by the Democratic party and yet said "I'm an Independent" I wouldn't say "No, you're a Democrat!"

I doubt I'd even say "I feel sad that you don't identify as a Democrat." I could see saying "Funny, you sure sound like one of us!" or asking why the person isn't, but I don't think I'd have the "You're wrong about yourself" reaction people have to others who say "I agree with you, but I don't really consider myself a feminist."

DA

[(Anonymous)]

I think the "You're one of us regardless" is more a not so great attempt at trying to say "by my understanding of the definition you are a feminist" but without actually explaining anything. It'd definitely annoying, but it's more a reaction to the extremists muddying the waters than anything else imho.

(Also just want to add I think you're dealing with all these comments with a very good attitude and explaining yourself well. A lot of people would get defensive and angry and stoop to mocking people for being Anon. Good for you for being awesome in the face of controversy.)

Re: DA

[stainless]

Thanks anon! I was trying to answer you yesterday but my power cut out, damn storm :-/

I agree that that's what's being said. I just think it has some really unfortunate implications. I think the strength of feminism is all it's done for women and the way that so many smaller and diverse submovements provide options for many women who want to focus on many different issues or axes of oppression.

But I think the major weakness of the movement is that for all its diversity, its members can get startlingly one true way. All the while insisting that because feminism is a broad umbrella, any discomfort someone feels is "false consciousness" or "internalized misogyny" or failure to "check" privilege of one kind or another.

And I wouldn't mock people for being anon, usually. :-) Personally I try to put my name on things because I feel it's generally nobler, but it does open you up to a lot of nastiness and wank. I can't say I always put my name on things myself, nor can I blame those who choose not to. :-)

[world_eater]

But I still have to say I find the whole "You're one of us regardless of whether you say so!" thing totally bizarre.

Eh, I think it's more bizarre that anyone would object to it. I mean... why, other than bad connotations?
Besides, it's often used as a wake-up call for the people who go "Ew feminists", not to literally label them. It's used to tell people "If you believe women and men should be treated equal, you're a feminist. That's it, no obligation to march or burn bras".
I mean, if you're (general you) that worried, nobody can "force" you to accept that term, right? It has no weight when a feminist calls you a feminist if you're that much against it, so I don't understand why it's supposed to be such a horrible thing either.

[stainless]

Eh, I think it's more bizarre that anyone would object to it. I mean... why, other than bad connotations?

Well, in my personal case it annoys me because I left the movement (because I really didn't like some people's behavior, not because I decided sexism is awesome) and it feels really erasing to read that that's somehow impossible to do.

But beyond that, I personally believe that we all get to label or refrain from labeling ourselves as we see fit. I think that others insisting that we accept labels is a violation of personal autonomy. (A minor one, but a very annoying one, considering that it seems to me that one of the goals of feminism is or at least should be that more people around the world respect women's autonomy.)

I also think "You're one of us, like it or not!" is a spectacularly bad way to handle the problem that feminism has bad PR. That's one of the reasons I left the movement. Not this specific "I'm calling you either a feminist or a misogynist" thing, but the tendency among some feminists to circle the wagons when criticized, rather than bothering to think about why other people might not feel they belong.

And I've known a lot of women who felt they didn't really belong (and, obviously, been one of those women myself.) Here's a list, some of which I am and most of which I'm not: Trans women. Women of color. Queer femmes. Kinky women. Going back in time a bit, butch women too. (I think there are still whiffs of this one, personally, but it's definitely not as strong as it once was.) Sex workers.

No, I don't fit into many of these categories. But I think it's my place as a decent person (I won't say "as an ally" as I think it runs deeper than that) to know and understand where these people might be coming from. And I do think that, yes, even looking at how others are treated might be a valid reason for someone to sadly relinquish a label until others behave.

But instead of recognizing these reasons, feminists often insist that those who have these concerns are either in denial or must be misogynists/"antifeminists" (I often wonder these days what that word is supposed to mean. I think we intended it to mean "people who support the oppression of women through word and deed," but far too often it turned out to parse as "people we want to insult.") That behavior bothers me.

[veronica_rich]

But what if it's not your definition of "the work?" There are lots of people who, for example, work multiple jobs and/or have families to take care of, and don't have much free time, and don't want to spend it at a rally or making posters or getting arrested for what they believe. But they believe in those causes, and when those things come up in conversation in their daily lives, will express opinions supporting them even if it means making a co-worker or boss or friend annoyed or angry.

I wouldn't call them an "activist" but I would say if they espouse feminist ideals and want to be called a "feminist," then they can be a feminist. Or a supporter of LGBT rights. Or anything they're supporting in some way by how they speak or live their daily life.

[stainless]

If they can tell me what they're doing and what measurable effect it has on the world around them, however small, I'm good with it. If they're run of the mill slacktivists, I'm not going to claim that isn't better than nothing, but I'm not gonna throw 'em any parties.

If they used to be really big in the movement until they took that second job, or the kids mean they had to cut down on whatever but they foo and bar when they can, that's different. It's the idea that values mean something intrinsically, completely divorced from action, that I find a bit sketchy nowadays.

[veronica_rich]

I'm not sure I agree that people have to prove on a scale that what they believe is making a measurable difference. I'm all for pointing out someone's negative or harmful-to-others behavior if they're acting like a bigot - especially if it's counter to what they call themselves - but if a woman who merely believes in feminism and doesn't act against those principles wants to call herself a feminist, I'm not going to judge her like this. Because chances are good she does little things that support feminist principles, like helping her daughter decide what college to go to or what AP classes to take; or loaning a friend or sister money for an abortion if that's what they want, or just finding a doctor to do it; or helping the same friend or sister with babysitting while they go do something for themselves, if they have kids they wanted; or correcting wrong assumptions in the workplace among co-workers who say or do something un-feminist. These are all important things to do, but they're so small individually, and not really "out there" as Big Gestures of Social Justice.

But, of course, you believe your thing and I'll believe mine at the end of the day.

[stainless]

I get what you're saying and you make really good points. I just feel leery of slacktivists and think they muck things up. Chalk it up to my cynicism. :-)