[ SECRET POST #2008 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2008 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 088 secrets from Secret Submission Post #287.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[diet_poison]

If he didn't want the child, then he probably shouldn't have participated in an activity which biologically leads to it, and in which the only method with a 100% rate of prevention is abstaining from said activity and when he already knows he has no other biological control after there is a fetus.

I can't believe you actually said this seriously. Because when this argument is applied to women, all fucking hell breaks loose.

this is probably a bad idea, seriously not trying to start anything

[anonymouslyyours]

There is a difference in the situations. If birth control fails or a vasectomy reverses for a man there is a difference in what happens when the same occurs to a woman. If a man wants an abortion the consequences are to the woman, not to his body.

Re: this is probably a bad idea, seriously not trying to start anything

[diet_poison]

I'm just making the point that if a person suggests that maybe women should *gasp* avoid having sex if they want to avoid the potential consequences, people start screaming misogyny. It's just common sense imo. I'm not even talking about abortion here - and I'm not condemning sex either, just pointing out the basic fact that actions have consequences and I'm really surprised to see someone applying that principle to one side of this discussion since when it's applied to the other sense you become a horrible heartless troll.

[meadowphoenix]

That's because you're asking for equal consideration with disparate impact. At no point will a man's right to control his health be in conflict because of pregnancy. A woman's health will be, and one decision on your health does not waive the right to control it completely. So the decision not to use birth control, which is a health decision, cannot waive the right to make other health decisions completely.

You're also ignoring that culturally, woman are thought to be primarily responsible for birth control anyway.

[diet_poison]

And you're missing the point - I wasn't even talking about abortion or birth control. Just saying that the principle of "you shouldn't sleep around if you don't want to wind up with the potential consequences of that action on your hand" was applied here to men but nobody ever applies it to women because if they do they get accused of being a horrible person. But I think it's a good principle for *everybody* to keep in mind - actions have consequences and risks are involved; it's something people should be aware of before making decisions like who to have sex with and when and even whether to have it. And it's a principle that's rarely brought up in this sort of discussion, because people are quick to call one a prude or say someone is trying to stamp out others' rights to sexual freedom etc.

And for the record, I think both men and women are responsible for birth control. And that's another part of the choice - if you wish to have sex and minimalize the potential for negative consequences, not only should you protect yourself but make sure your partner is also using protection.

[meadowphoenix]

Are you serious right now? Women have been blamed for the consequences of sex for fucking ever. And I do mean blamed and I do mean forever. That's my point about birth control. I think your opinion on responsibility and birth control is healthy but society absolutely does not see it that way. In society, women are responsible for prevention. And I assure you, girls get socialized to that standard. Boys do not. When you say nobody applies it to women without accusation, the reality is that people get upset because you're repeating a mantra that started in the Classical period and never stopped.

It is slowly changing from that double standard, but you're kidding if you think that principle (women's choices on sex should and do have more gravitas) is not the underpinning of every discussion on sex.

No seriously, though. Why do you think there hasn't been far more research on male contraception, when there was so much variety for women? Or that on the whole, women know far more about condoms, then men know about birth control pills, cups, sponges, rings, diaphragms, female condoms (I'm saying anyone of those things singly). Notice that although there are female condoms, there aren't male birth control pills or shots or rings.

[diet_poison]

Except I'm not talking about the history of who blames who for sex or whatever, I'm talking about what's relevant today and now.

A history of "everyone blames women" doesn't mean that today everyone should always blame men because then it's fair. Seriously, where does that even come from. I'm not arguing about what society actually thinks but what *should* be thought, imo.

I completely agree with you that society's double standard regarding birth control is wrong - sorry if I didn't make that clear enough before.

[meadowphoenix]

My point about society's double standard (and birth control) is that the history hasn't been concluded. It still exists. Now. In the present. Literally at this moment. I brought up the history because this has been a never-changing view of women. Women, in this very instance, are responsible for birth control. Suggesting that only men are been warned is ridiculous, because women have never stopped being warned.

[diet_poison]

"are been warned"

Assuming you meant "are being warned", then I don't know where you got that from. At the beginning of this thread I was talking about one person's comment, not society at large.

[meadowphoenix]

Do I have to go back and copy paste what you said? You suggested saying something about women and responsibility such as I said about men and responsibility would get you jumped on. By who, if not society or other humans in society? Aliens? Either read something substantial about sex politics or realize that you look ridiculously uninformed and like you are trying desperately to cover that ignorance up.

[diet_poison]

By who, if not society or other humans in society?

By the people here, on the Internet (specifically DW). That's what I was talking about since, you know, that's where this discussion was taking place. You are reading a helluva a lot into what I said that wasn't there.

You also proved my point.

I'm kind of tired of being talked down to, btw.

[meadowphoenix]

Those humans on the internet are in society. Every discussion you will have today, internet or no, is in society. This particular point about women is fairly immutable across different societies. I don't at all understand why or how you are separating the internet from society.

Let's be clear. If you think this discussion is you getting jumped on, then that's you and your definition of jumped on. I don't consider questioning someone's understanding of a subject when they haven't replied in a logical manner to what I said jumping on. The internet =/= society being one of those break downs in logic.

But you're right. I get kinda condescending when I feel someone isn't getting something I see as self-evident, especially when I've addressed everything they've said, and they come up with derivative and digressive responses.

So we can totally stop if you want. I don't see this going anywhere if you won't respond with things that actually challenge what I'm saying or even show how what I'm saying doesn't relate to what you've said, instead of stating it doesn't without any sort of backing up of that statement. We clearly don't understand each other. It happens.

[diet_poison]

Surprised and frustrated here.

Do you really think people on DW, are an accurate reflection of society in general when it comes to politics? Like do you really, honestly think that? Because if so, then that's probably why we are having this misunderstanding.

People in places like this (not the Internet at large, but here on this comm, sorry for the confusion there btw) are overwhelmingly liberal. The majority of people here do not think that women are solely responsible for birth control and if you think they do, then we're not going to get anywhere.

[meadowphoenix]

Wait a second. You can't equate liberal with a lack of sexist biases. The politics of women's rights doesn't mean that you've given up all social prejudices on sex. I grant you that it makes you more conscious of them, but hardly every one and not the same ones for every liberal. I also want to make sure we both understand that we're talking about women being responsible for sexual consequences, of which birth control is a manifestation.

Because while I don't think this is an accurate representation of politics, I don't think anyone's left their sexual biases behind either. The people in this comm are perfectly capable of cognitive dissonance, arguing for women's rights and then writing fanfiction that belies that.

Frankly, I don't think you can definitely say that women being responsible for sexual consequences isn't evident here; none of the secrets bring it up. But it is a deep societal prejudice for liberals and conservatives alike, and I don't think the people on this comm have sloughed it off simply because liberal principles apply more here than in the real world.

[diet_poison]

I honestly do not think the majority of people on this comm actually believe only women are responsible for birth control.

If you do, then that is where we disagree.

[meadowphoenix]

Responsibility about birth control is not equivalent to responsibility about sexual consequences. It is simply one manifestation of that thought process. We are talking about responsibility about sexual consequences.

People believing a certain sex has a responsibility about sexual consequences doesn't have to be stated directly by them to find they have such a premise. Just look at all the thoughts GOT thoughts about how badly Cersei raised Joffrey despite there being another parent and other children that don't behave similarly. The assumption behind this is that Joffrey came from Cersei and therefore she alone is responsible for him. Neither Jaime, who's probably the real dad, nor Robert, who had time to be with his kids even if he didn't take it, get any blame. I hear a few token protests against this assumption and more actual agreement.

[diet_poison]

You brought up responsibility for birth control so I kind of thought that's what we were talking about?

Anyway, I don't really feel like keeping this argument up. I don't think most people *here* believe women are solely responsible for birth control and I doubt most believe they're solely responsible for the products of sex etc. I mean. Even if they did have some of that internalized most wouldn't come here and say that.

The Cersei example is a little weird since Cersei is the one doing the actual parenting, not Jaime. Like idek if Joff knows Jaime is his real father (maybe that comes up later in the books than I've read? but I haven't seen it). Also Joff is a nasty little sociopath which...may be encouraged by either/both of his parents (or others) but isn't necessarily caused by them. I think he was born with at least some of those tendencies.

So now we can go back and forth over and over again about whether people have this internalized opinion or not. But my original point - that people are more likely to be jumped on for implying that women *do* have a fair amount of responsibility for their sexual choices - still stands.

As it is no one "jumped on me", but you certainly did reply with a rather condescending analysis as to why saying something like that was bad...or whatever you said. I've forgotten now and cba go look it up, this whole conversation just seems pointless.

[meadowphoenix]

Yeah, this just seems circular. You may say you're more likely to get jumped "here", but you did so in a way that suggested that people being defensive of women's health choices were being unreasonable. My point is they're not being unreasonable since it's pretty likely women get "be responsible" a lot from society anyway. Nobody talks here as if the internet is a close circuit with no regard as the prevailing view of things in society. No one. Although I should have made it far more clear.

Robert was Joffrey's stated father, and no one blames that douche. People do blame Cersei.

You said I proved your point, which was about being jumped on, with my response, which you found condescending. So yes, you did imply you were jumped on by my response.

[diet_poison]

" but you did so in a way that suggested that people being defensive of women's health choices were being unreasonable."

How is saying "it's wrong to imply that women have *some* responsibility for their actions, including sex" in any way the same thing as getting defensive of women's health choices? I really think you are blowing up my original point into something that was never there.

Good point about Robert. I hadn't thought of that. And yeah, he was a very negligent "father", so he should be blamed for that, ia. (I mean even though it's twisted that he was sort of bullshitted out of having any actual, "trueborn" kids? But he didn't know that during his lifetime, so it's not an excuse for his behavior, and even then...)

[meadowphoenix]

I'm equating the people who would be jumpy with the people who are defensive. I just don't think the jumpy/defensive people are unreasonable. Saying women have some responsibility simply isn't new information.

I'm not saying there aren't circumstances in which mentioning that everyone has responsibility isn't warranted. I just don't think it's warranted in general.