fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2022 ]

[ SECRET POST #2022 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2022 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 088 secrets from Secret Submission Post #289.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

theft
[theft] Show IPA
noun
1.
the act of stealing

steal
[steel] Show IPA ,verb, stole, sto·len, steal·ing, noun
verb (used without object)
1.
to commit or practice theft.

Are you completely daft or do you not speak English?

Theft = stealing. Stealing = theft. Piracy =/= theft, ergo piracy =/= stealing.

Piracy is copyright infringement. You have "taken" as per all definitions of theft and stealing legal or otherwise - including your own "kindergarten" 'TAKING without asking' - literally nothing. It is still there. You have accessed and unlicensed copy of something.

Accessing an unlicensed copy of something is wrong and illegal. But it is NOT. STEALING.

...Are we done yet?

No?

PIRACY IS COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT.

You are infringing on someone's right to something or stealing their right to their work. This is maybe an interesting legal argument but for a lay person I don't think it's ridiculous to equate piracy to stealing.

Not that I'm like boo piracy or anything but calling it something else doesn't actually make it something else.

I AM CALLING IT SOMETHING ELSE BECAUSE IT IS SOMETHING ELSE.

You are infringing on someone's right to something or stealing their right to their work.

INFRINGING ON A COPYRIGHT IS WRONG, BUT IT IS NOT THEFT. YOU CANNOT "STEAL" SOMEONE'S RIGHT TO THEIR WORK. THAT WOULD MEAN YOU NOW HAVE THE INTELLECTUAL RIGHTS TO THEIR WORK. YOU DO NOT HAVE THAT.

YOU HAVE AN UNLICENSED COPY OF THEIR WORK. THE RIGHTS TO THEIR WORK REMAIN THEIR OWN.

PIRACY IS COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT. YES, IT IS WRONG, AND IT IS ILLEGAL. BUT IT IS NOT RAPE. OR MURDER. OR ASSAULT. OH, AND IT IS NOT THEFT EITHER. I REFUSE TO BELIEVE LAY PEOPLE ARE TOO FUCKING STUPID TO GRASP THIS CONCEPT.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT LAY PEOPLE ARE TOO FUCKING STUPID TO UNDERSTAND IT?

Edited 2012-07-17 03:45 (UTC)

As a lay person I would use that word casually because being super specific is not important to me as long as it conveys what I am trying to say. But look, not trying to start stuff or even say that you are wrong. Just telling you how I see it. And I see it different than you. A pirate has the work without the artist's permission. Whether or not they have the original I consider that stealing.

But look, not trying to start stuff or even say that you are wrong.

I know you're not, because I'm not wrong, and you're not an idiot. You just want to think something that is wrong is the same as a different thing that's wrong because both are bad and have bad consequences and make you feel bad, and one word doesn't sound as bad as the act and the consequences of the act makes you feel. But at the end of the day, words still mean things.

...Sorry, I've had this argument too many times. I just can't believe people are intelligent enough to learn trigonometry as a required math course but can't understand the difference between two crimes. I just can't do it. My faith in humanity can't take the blow.

"Consider" it something it isn't all you want. Diana Gabaldon considers fanfiction to be the identical to home invasion. They "invaded" her intellectual property! Just like pirates "stole" it! Yarrr! Thar be electronic booty! It's not like I can stop you.

Maybe piracy is more like rape! Or genocide! Or tax evasion! You're "evading" the lawful purchase of the object!

...You wouldn't hide your assets overseas to tax dodge, would you? Then why are you hiding your IP address to use torrents?

DOWNLOADING PIRATED FILMS IS TAX EVASION.

TAX EVASION IS AGAINST THE LAW.

PIRACY - IT'S A CRIME.

Legally I agree with you but for people who have no interest in the legal profession I think we would use the term 'stealing' to cover all the different flavors and methods of illegally obtaining something be it through evading taxes or downloading torrents. And tbh if tax evasion was as easy as piracy I'm pretty sure we would all be doing that too. Most of us probably aren't morally opposed to committing that kind of crime just lazy.

I'm not going to comment on the rape and genocide because I don't think that would be helpful or constructive in any way.

we would use the term 'stealing' to cover all the different flavors and methods of illegally obtaining something be it through evading taxes or downloading torrents

So... piracy is tax evasion, for the lay person? Even though tax fraud "obtains" literally nothing, not even access to an unlicensed copy? The lay person is incapable of understanding a more nuanced reality than "do bad things with property? Stealing! Stealing is make bad with property"?

Well, you heard it here folks. Piracy is tax evasion.

At least the "lay person" can tell the difference between piracy and genocide, apparently.

That's... ... ...something.

Fine. Anyone who doesn't use proper legal terms in casual conversation is an asshole. You win.

(no subject)

ariakas - 2012-07-17 04:24 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

anonymouslyyours - 2012-07-17 04:29 (UTC) - Expand

Legally I agree with you but for people who have no interest in the legal profession I think we would use the term 'stealing' to cover all the different flavors and methods of illegally obtaining something be it through evading taxes or downloading torrents.

As someone who does have an interest in the legal profession, I can tell you: 'Stealing' isn't a legal term. It's just a regular word that means pretty much what you said.

I know you're not, because I'm not wrong.

What you are is special.

:|

okay I stopped reading this thread with interest when you turned on the "yelling" to drown out others.

I'm gonna stick to calling it stealing.

I think, as visp and anonymouslyyours proved, you can't really "drown someone out" on the internet.

You can stop reading something because you don't like the tone of the opposing side, though, obviously. Nor can I stop you from calling something something it isn't.

And it might not even be illegal depending on which country you are.

You are infringing on someone's right to something or stealing their right to their work.

When I download pirated copy of Harry Potter, does JKR lose her rights to it?

TBH I'm not exactly proud of any of my wording last night. I was mostly just baffled that someone thought people couldn't use the word stealing to describe piracy. What I meant here was that you stole the right in you specific case, not in a general sense if that helps?

*sigh* The word 'stealing' has a broad vernacular meaning. Illegally obtaining copies of something falls under it.

Yes, piracy is tax evasion. The other commenter already helpfully explained it to me. I understand now.

No, piracy and tax evasion are two subcategories of stealing.

Can you point me to any source, anywhere out there on the vast embodiment of all knowledge that is the internet that can back you up on that? Anywhere at all that defines:

stealing (vernacular)

1. piracy
2. tax evasion
3. ????
4. profit

Or something to that effect? Any documented source that states that "piracy" and "tax evasion" are "subcategories" of "stealing"? Any reliable source will do. Because if it's even remotely true I'm sure you could find one. I'm positive I could find one that was like:

duck

1. mallard
2. mandarin
3. other subcategories of duck

or

sports

1. swimming
2. running
3. you get the point

So, like, anything like that?

You mean other than all the people on this list that have said so?

All two of you?

...I'll take that as a no, then.

(no subject)

visp.livejournal.com - 2012-07-17 05:24 (UTC) - Expand

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ariakas - 2012-07-17 05:38 (UTC) - Expand

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visp.livejournal.com - 2012-07-17 05:56 (UTC) - Expand

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ariakas - 2012-07-17 07:02 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2012-07-17 07:54 (UTC) - Expand

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ariakas - 2012-07-17 08:26 (UTC) - Expand

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anonymouslyyours - 2012-07-17 08:28 (UTC) - Expand

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ariakas - 2012-07-17 08:33 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2012-07-17 06:12 (UTC) - Expand

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ariakas - 2012-07-17 07:22 (UTC) - Expand

Seriously neither of us are saying that. Just that they can both be described by the same word. Piracy is stealing what someone else has. Tax evasion is keeping what you owe someone else. Both end up with you having something that isn't yours so most people don't have a problem with using a broad term to describe both.

Just that they can both be described by the same word.

And fanfiction can be described as home invasion. Diana Gabaldon proved it.

Tax evasion isn't "having something that isn't yours", it's falsifying legal documents so that you appear to owe less by contract to the gov... oh, forget it. Nevermind.

No, I get it. You've already pointed out that the lay public has no concept of nuance and no problem equating vastly different actions, effects, and consequences because they make them feel bad, and they have to do with property. "Stealing = property bad", according to the lay people you're representing. Not any dictionary I've ever read, but I may just be behind the times.

Okay, stealing = "property bad". Tax evasion and piracy are both "property bad", therefore stealing. I follow the... ...logic.

Fanfiction cannot be clearly communicated to most people as home invasion. Piracy can be clearly communicated as stealing. So I'm not understanding your comparison.

Wait. If you lie about how much you owe and keep the difference how do you not have something that isn't yours?

Also I feel "vastly" is incorrect word choice but I don't have the same kind of commitment as you and therefore do not plan on arguing it out over a thread.

And yet, Gabaldon has numerous supporters, especially amongst published authors, who "understood" her meaning precisely. Fanfiction clearly could be communicated to people as home invasion. And piracy cannot be communicated to some people as "stealing". Obviously, I'm an example of this, but if you follow a link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmZm8vNHBSU) to a very well known and popular video equating piracy with stealing, the overwhelming majority of the comments are to the effect that piracy cannot be equated with stealing. Thus, my comparison is valid. I, and they, disagree with your "vernacular" usage.

Because the government represents you as part of a legal contract - tax dollars are "public"; if everyone is required to pay $5 for coffee at an anime night, and you were all "oh shit I forgot my wallet, I only have two bucks" and you gave them two bucks and they let you drink the coffee, but really you had five bucks on you the whole time, do you now have coffee that "isn't yours"? Is drinking the coffee exactly the same offense as swiping all the coffee money afterward? Obviously not.

But it's a good question. And the answer is a lot more complicated and untrivial than "YOU WOULDN'T STEAL A CAR, WOULD YOU? SO WHY ARE YOU DRINKING COFFEE WHEN YOU ONLY PAID $2???!!!". That sort of bunk trivializes the discussion into meaninglessness.

Really? You don't feel that breaking into someone's home and stealing their jewelry is "vastly" different from accessing an unlicensed copy of a manga online? You think they're "trivially" different, or "not different at all"? Really? Or are you just saying that because you are committed to making that argument, because that's the only possible way I could see someone arguing that the two were quite similar or identical.