fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2069 ]

[ SECRET POST #2069 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2069 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[The City of Dreaming Books]

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[Teen Girl Squad]

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[Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind]

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[Avengers]

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[The Monkees]

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Notes:

Important: I'm really sorry about this, but I accidentally clicked the wrong thing and deleted the submission post from last week instead of saving it. Managed to save the first page (25) of secrets, but the rest (a bit over 100) are gone.

If you submitted something last week (Aug 26-Sept 1), please resubmit it here and it will still go up this week.

The submissions post for next week is linked below as usual.

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #296.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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But that's so boring. All that emotional investment in his and Thor's relationship and the Avengers' rallying and fighting and avenging gone, *poof*, even though the alternative explanation of him being genuinely evil is so much more engaging and satisfying?

It would be like finding out Darth Vader was a remote-controlled robot built by the Empire, instead of Anakin Skywalker.

It's not boring to me. It would actually be a fairly unique take on things. I can't think of any other blockbuster that had an estranged bad guy who one of the heroes just couldn't give up on be brainwashed into doing bad things, be freed from said brainwashing, and then still turn around and continue being a bad guy.

If that sort of plot comes up, it's always to allow for a tearful reconciliation and redemption. I'm not talking about reconciliation and redemption here. I'm talking Loki getting revenge on the Chitauri and then telling Thor he can fuck off, Loki's going to do what he wants.

I don't see how it reduces the emotional investment in Loki and Thor's relationship, nor in the Avengers. If anything, Loki being a flat evil character without any nuance makes the whole thing dull and uninteresting, IMO. I don't care about two dimensional characters. I'd be bored silly about Thor pining over Loki if Loki was really that evil. What would be the point of him? What can be done with the character if he doesn't have anything going for him at all other than his evilness?

I'm talking Loki getting revenge on the Chitauri and then telling Thor he can fuck off, Loki's going to do what he wants.

I think you just hit upon the point of why your idea is so stupid — NO ONE CARES about Loki. No one cares about seeing him get revenge on the Chitauri. No one cares about him going through mind-control and shit. People watch the Avengers for the Avengers, not for Loki. A plot like that would be met with a torrent of "what am I doing watching this asshole muck around when I could be watching Superhero Movie #127 instead?"

LOL. Dude, you don't care about Loki. A whole lot of other people disagree. I care about him because I think he makes a good antagonist.

It seems really weird to me that you're assuming that Loki having anything going on other than being Evil (tm) would somehow distract from the rest of the characters. It's an ensemble cast and they manage to keep all of the characters fairly nuanced and give them all unique motivations. If Loki's involved at all - and he will be, the actor is signed on for at least three more films - he'll have motivation as well. That doesn't turn it into The Loki Movie any more than Lando having motivation for betraying Han and Leia and Chewie made Empire into the Lando Movie.

It would distract from the rest of the characters because he was the principal villain of the last movie. If he were introduced, betrayed the Avengers, and given motivation all in the same movie? THAT would be interesting. But Loki is not Lando. He's not a minor character. A plotline like this would either be a) a pointless minor subplot that really ruins a lot of the meaning of The Avengers for no good reason with no character development, or b) a big major subplot that annoyingly distracts people from the Avengers' subplots by forcing them to look at a villain being a villain but not fighting the Avengers for copious amounts of time.

I'm not saying this idea completely lacks merit, but it makes for a far better fanfic than a canonical movie.

TBH, I felt like Avengers was crammed full as it was. Going into Loki being under the influence of the Chitauri and explaining why it might be different for him vs. with Clint, it just feels like it would have been too much. But they could lay some subtext footwork for it and play around with the concept later on. I don't see it as violating anything within the Avengers itself, but then I'm fond of reveals that cause the audience to rewatch what came before with a new eye. *shrug*

I don't see it distracting people about why a villain isn't being a villain either. The cliched thing is for the estranged brother to reconcile and become a ~part of the team, right? Most people would expect that and not expect Loki to turn on them in the end. I give people enough credit to not get confused about a villain wanting to use the good guys against a third party.

I mean, I'm not hugely attached to the idea either. If I'm wrong about it, it's not like I'm going to go sobbing into my Cheerios or anything. I think it would add something, but other people are free to disagree.

What? *shudder* Why would Loki become part of the team? Ew, god, that would be utterly godawful and I'd HATE that. No way would any of the team ever forgive him or work with him, not after killing so many people, and especially not after what he did to Clint and to Coulson. I don't see what's wrong with Loki either staying evil and only dealing with Thor, or redeeming himself sans mind-control and still only dealing with Thor. After all, he didn't really give a shit about the Avengers did he? It was all "Ant. Boot." and he only fucked around with them to further his own ends and to hurt Thor.

I think you missed the point of my comment, dude. I was saying that's the cliched thing that audiences tend to expect, especially if Loki was mind controlled. My whole deal all along has been that I wanted Loki to be mind controlled but still be a bad guy.

Loki might be willing to use the Avengers as a tool to get revenge and I can see the Avengers taking the uneasy "enemy of my enemy is my ~~friend~~ enemy that I'll deal with later" option. Loki using them but then turning around and backstabbing them afterward is what I was going for, not Loki being a true member of the team.

Yeah, yeah, sorry, I was kind of going on a tangent there. :)

I think that's a cool story actually, but I seriously doubt it's ability to work in a film franchise. It sounds like it would make a much better comic book arc.

Tangents are cool, I was just confused. :D

I've no idea if it's possible to do it in a film but I've been pleasantly surprised by these guys before. Plus the wank! The epic, endless wank! It would piss off the woobie!Loki fans and the woobie!Loki haters at the same time. They'd both be wrong. I'm just evil enough to find that appealing in its own right.

But I'd be cool with it in a comic, too. Just not anytime soon, hopefully, since I'm really enjoying kid!Loki!

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(Anonymous) - 2012-09-02 01:40 (UTC) - Expand

I think you missed the point of my comment, dude. I was saying that's the cliched thing that audiences tend to expect,

NA
LOL. Dude, no one but Loki fans could expect Loki to end up working with the team, and find it cliched.

The rest of the audience would go "WTF?!"

No one cares about Loki? You've got to be kidding.

You frequent F!S, right? You don't even have to touch the main fandom to know that a lot of people care about Loki.

Edited 2012-09-02 00:09 (UTC)

da

LOL seriously. All I ever seem to hear about Avengers is Clint/Coulson and woobie!Loki. People either love them or hate them, but they sure as fuck care about them.

But that's because you're in fandom. Most people, period, who watched the movie don't even know that "woobie!Loki" or Clint/Coulson are even things that exist. Fandom has a completely different way of looking at these films than most human beings do.

I'm in fandom but I'm not in Avengers fandom. I don't need to be to hear about C/C or woobie!Loki.

Loki's a popular character, even outside of fandom. People like him. Or they like to hate him. Either way. He makes money. I don't know where he'd rank in a popularity contest or anything but he's a good character and TPTB are very, very aware of that.

Don't get me wrong, I know that fandom isn't the only sector of the population that appreciates Loki. It is, however, probably near the only part that is obsessed enough with him to want what would most likely have to be half of "The Avengers" to not actually be about the Avengers.

I'm lost as to why Loki being mind controlled would mean half of Avengers 2 wouldn't be about the Avengers. At worst, it would open up the possibility for Loki to be an Avenger and in that case it still wouldn't be LOKI THE MOVIE (guest starring the Avengers) but Loki as one among a cast of a dozen or so other characters.

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(Anonymous) - 2012-09-02 01:45 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2012-09-02 01:49 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2012-09-02 02:04 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2012-09-02 03:11 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2012-09-02 03:30 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2012-09-02 04:27 (UTC) - Expand

The Avengers made over a billion dollars worldwide. It may feel like those all could have been fourteen-year-old fangirls on tumblr, but the fact remains that they still constitute what most film-watchers would consider a small and bizarre fringe group.

Yeah, this.

People like an interesting villain. Most people, not just fangirls. And, if he were retconned into a sort of anti-hero... well, people love anti-heroes too.

Fandom's take on Loki is kind of beyond just "liking an interesting villain". That's my point here, they're two different levels of investment.

I find it pretty insulting that you'd equate people with an interest in Loki's character with "fourteen year old fangirls". I'm pretty sick of people sneering at fangirls (or teenage girls) in general, actually.

Lots of people have an interest in Loki. Most of them are not 14 year old fangirls and it's not a bad thing to be a 14 year old fangirl anyway. People not in fandom at all like Loki either because they like a good villain or because they want him to be redeemed.

da

Yeah, but they wouldn't write fic or have in-depth discussions or write fic or go over subtext or write fic or make gifsets or write fic and stuff. They'd just...appreciate the story. All by itself.

I'm not arguing that no one likes Loki, or that all people who like Loki are those people. I'm arguing that these are two different groups and levels of investment, and fandom is one of the few places where people are so used to doing the work of creating plots, relationships, and subtext out of nothing themselves that they forget that pulling plot twists and character development out of nowhere is bad writing on the part of the creators of the source material, even if a small part of the population is so heavily invested that they came up with it themselves independently out of desperation to see a character become a different kind of character.

I'm not psychic, I can't say whether or not any kind of redemption is in store for Loki. But I think, in addition to Avengers pretty much creating a rock-bottom of murderous evilness for Loki, its success probably set a tone that is what the vast majority of people who watched it responded to and will respond to -- Loki is a terrible person, and seeing him get the shit beat out of him by superheroes is fun.

Regardless, I apologize for the potshot at teenage girls. I realize that not all obsessive movie-Loki fans are part of that demographic.

Fandom is only a small, small part of the general viewing audience though.

No your average person who goes to see Avengers or your average kid who buys action figures doesn't generally care much about Loki.

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