fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #211 ]

[ SECRET POST #211 ]

⌈ Secret Post #211 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Off to the Epik High concert! Have some emopuppy if you want → ♥

Secrets Left to Post: 06 pages, 140 secrets from Secret Submission Post #031.
Secrets Not Posted: 0 broken links, 0 not!secrets, 0 not!fandom, [ 1 2 ] repeat.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Sunday, August 5th, 2007.
Current Secret Submission Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Okay, I read all the comments saying "but it means good luck too", and they make me so angry. Yes, it's a magical symbol, but it doesn't matter what it USED to mean or what it means in OTHER parts of the world.

For one, you're all forgetting that the swastika as a magical symbol does NOT look like the Nazi-Hakenkreuz, which is turned by 45 degrees.

Second, I don't think any American, unless they're refugees, will ever understand how this symbol makes us feel. Germany and Austria have a ban on it - we do not draw it or show it publicly, unless it's for scholarly purposes. I have never in all my life drawn a swastika or even thought about drawing one. I feel queasy and scared when I look at a swastika, or when I type the word Hakenkreuz. It symbolizes terror and genocide and death. Of course it's been over fifty years, of course most of us weren't even THERE when Hitler pushed for the Endlösung. But similar to fear of snakes, predators, big cats, a respect, a fear of this symbol remains.

Nobody's asking you to understand this - but the least you can do is RESPECT it.

I know perfectly well that the good luck-swastika and nazi-swastika are positioned differently. But the secret didn't specify, all they said was "the swastika is a symbol of hate." Also, it doesn't "also mean good luck." It ORIGINALLY meant good luck. Hitler took the symbol and twisted it into his own symbol. It's like someone taking a triangle, flipping it upside-down, and proclaiming it to be the symbol for their Genocide Club.

Also, it's pretty narrow of you to assume no "American" would understand. Since when did race matter at all when it came to compassion and understanding?

American is a nationality, not a race, and I don't think she thought anyone lacked compassion. You can understand the sentiments she has written here, and you can feel an echo of them, but I think what she meant is that that unless you've felt it firsthand, you won't understand any more of it than what she or other people have told you about it.

Thank you. This is exactly what I meant =)

OSHI- my mistake (about the race thing). I was actually thinking more about ALL of America, not the US, but uh- yeah.

I know it *originally* meant that, but that doesn't change what it means NOW. And people aren't drawing the straight swastika, they mostly use the Nazi swastika because it's well known. There are symbols used out of their original context everywhere, and are now widely used and accepted in their NEW context. For example read the Wiki article of the heart symbol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_symbol) or the pre-Christian use of the Latin cross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_cross).

And my assumption that most Americans don't understand is not based on a silly concept like 'race' but on educational and ancestral differences. I don't know if you are familiar with Jung's theory of the collective unconsciousness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconsciousness), but I suggest reading the wikipedia article in order to understand how such huge events like WWII and the Nazi regime can afflict the general emotional response to symbols and archetypes.

I don't think you understand this fully, so I'll say it as clearly as possible: The swastika still denotes good luck. It can still mean the same thing now as it did before the Nazi regime. Don't believe me? Take a look for yourself. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika)

Yes, I've read the articles that you've linked. And since you're so keen on linking to Wikipedia articles, I've decided to do the same. My point is this: The swastika as a religious/sacred symbol is NOT outdated. If you can't respect that the straight swastika does not automatically denote pro-genocide, then you're not very worldly.

Like you said yourself: Nobody's asking you to understand this--but the least you can do is RESPECT it.

I don't know why you're so keen to start a fight. I respect your conception of the symbol, but that doesn't mean I have to ignore my own feelings about it. (What's more is that fanartists usually use the 45° cross in their art.)

Look, I'm really tired, and yes I have read the wiki article on swastikas, and I honestly don't feel like arguing with you because we will not reach a consensus since we're coming from completely different points of view. I suggest we agree to disagree to avoid unnecessary drama =)

Um, NO. The swastika is not a "magical" symbol--in other parts of the world, it's a RELIGIOUS and SACRED one.

Re: your first point: I think the only person who is forgetting that the swastika as a religious/sacred symbol does not, in fact, look like the Nazi-Hakenkreuz is the OP themselves. Did the OP of secret 22 differentiate between the swastikas? No they did not. Instead they just made a blanket statement saying that all swastikas are symbols of hate when this is CLEARLY not the case. The OP's secret re: swastikas smacks of ignorance, frankly speaking.

I, for one, have drawn the swastika repeatedly. Do I feel queasy and sacred? You can bet your ass I do. I sure as hell feel sacred. Even if I'm drawing it on the other side of the planet, in the vicinity of my grandparents' house, I still fear that some ignorant tourist is going to come my way and label me as anti-Semitic just because they can't differentiate between the Nazi-Hakenkreuz and the swastika as a religious symbol.

Why should I (or anyone else reading your comment) have reason to respect it when you don't seem to respect what the symbol means in OTHER parts of the world?

Respect goes BOTH ways. Honestly.

As an atheist my conception of religion is the same as that of magic, so I hope you excuse my possibly confusing phrasing in my first comment.

As to the other part of your comment - I understand where you're coming from and I respect this of course. I redirect you here (http://community.livejournal.com/fandomsecrets/67118.html?thread=9212462#t9212462) to the reply I gave the other person who replied to my comment, though.

As an additional note - I do have respect for what it means in other parts of the world. I cannot, however, overcome what I've been taught all my life, what I was possibly born with, and I believe that such a thing as the genocide that happened under the 45° swastika should not be ignored even in the light of different social rules and customs.

...it doesn't matter what it USED to mean or what it means in OTHER parts of the world

Is that what you call respect? By the same token, why would I ever have reason to care what the swastika means now or in the part of the world where you come from?

It's a good thing I'm not really like that, and that in fact I DO care.

I'm not going to argue with you about the use or misuse of symbols and their meaning. Go read my other comment.

*I meant scared, not sacred in the 3rd paragraph. God, my typing is made of fail aldfjalda.

Sorry to butt in, but in genuinely sounds like you are just LOOKING to be offended. The original secret was very clearly on an overlay of Hitler, so why the hell would you assume the OP meant ANYTHING other than the 45-degree Nazi swastika and what's more get so bent out of shape about it?

I was not looking to get offended, but I am offended about what the OP posted. Why? Because this is very personal to me.

Yes, the secret is an overlay of Hitler. Why would I assume the OP meant anything other than a 45-degree Nazi swastika? Well, it might be because of this statement right here: A swastika is not a fashion accessory. It is a symbol of hate.

That? Is a BLANKET statement. It does NOT differentiate between the Nazi swastika and the religious/sacred swastika. What that statement does is claim that ALL swastikas are of the pro-genocide nature when that is NOT true. I doubt the OP realized there were different forms of a swastika before posting their secret, and it's ignorance like that that makes me fearful of being able to practice my own culture freely.

THAT is why I'm so "bent out of shape". I've broken it down as much as I possibly could, so I hope you understand now. If you don't, sorry, I don't know how else to explain it.

I'm pretty sure by "swastika" they just meant the Nazi one. They probably weren't even thinking of the other ones. Yeah, maybe they should have specified, but they probably assumed the reader would know what they meant.

I get you, and I'm technically American, though the vast majority of my family is German (my mother's whole side; she married a GI). My mother won't even raise her right hand during Mass because it resembles the Nazi "heil" sign. I don't regret never asking my grandfather about the war because it would have been painful as hell for him to remember. He came home in '52 from a Polish POW camp and spent the rest of his life gardening.

And I have shouted people down for bad jokes ("the art in Paris was worth a Holocaust or two" = FAIL). I have insisted that the jerks around me keep quiet during Yom Hashoah ceremonies. I do this not only because anti-Semitism is wrong, but because I always feel I have something to atone for. I cried during an episode of "Battlestar Galactica" that looked a little too much like history, for frak's sake. Always, always, I'll remember, because this is what my country did, and no other country should ever be permitted to do it again.

For me, this is what it's like to be of German descent post-World War II.

To clarify this: I DID NOT POST SECRET #22!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #211 ]

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Respecting and understanding, even.

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