fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2111 ]

[ SECRET POST #2111 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2111 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 124 secrets from Secret Submission Post #301.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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21. http://i.imgur.com/WrleI.jpg

Well, I think a lot of that comes from the way people view the 40's and 50's as more innocent, wholesome times, which is not really true. He also fought against Nazis, so he's definitely badass and a good person in the American point of view. I dunno, I'd probably assume Captain America had the most morally sound decision, even though I know he unsuccessfully tried to trick his own government five times.

BECAUSE HE CAN DO NO WRONG.

AND YES, THAT MEANS CYCLOPS AND TONY WERE WRONG.

If Spiderman and Captain America have the same thought, this thought is right and correct and beyond all questioning. And the only explanation you deserve for questioning it is a shield full of justice.

Parker has actually doubted himself sometimes though. If you were right, those moments would cause a reality BSoD.

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insanenoodlyguy - 2012-10-13 20:41 (UTC) - Expand

I just re-read The Confession and I have too many feelings about it. Sometimes I am afraid to say I am Team!Tony

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(Anonymous) - 2012-10-13 22:24 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2012-10-15 10:14 (UTC) - Expand

Do you mean in fandom or in the canon material? Because I really don't see it in the fandom. Most of the time he's treated as the "innocent little boyscout without a clue about the modern world".

I think I hate the "Innocent Boyscout" interpretation even more than the "Morally Infallible" one.

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intrigueing - 2012-10-13 22:06 (UTC) - Expand

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tropermariko - 2012-10-13 23:05 (UTC) - Expand

By "people" I take it you mean "the writers of recent comic crossover events".

Fuck that, I always write Cap as being just as vulnerable to human ideas that have bad consequences as everyone else. (but not as much as Tony, because as much as I love him... yeah. Tony, baby, please stahp)

I know what you mean. I actually don't have a problem with characters having very few flaws and actually being extremely morally sound and trustworthy, but I hate it when they do have flaws and they're treated like paragons anyway. And with Cap it happens disappointingly often in the comics, (although I'm a little curious if you mean the movies because fans don't treat movie!Steve as infallible in my experience).

This happens to Superman a lot too, btw. It's, like, implied that everything he does is perfect and moral and pure, which would be fine if it was, because Superman is just a really nice guy with no bad impulses and I don't care if he is basically perfect, but if he isn't, and is still treated as such, it's ten times worse than if he did the same thing and it was actually treated as a bad thing.

Or maybe they listen to him since he's the only Avenger with any kind of formal combat experience? Natasha and Clint are assassins, not soldiers, and they're not trained to work in groups.

he is not that strong, he comes after hulk,thor and iron man

Uh, pretty sure they meant strong as a personality trait, not physical strength.

Physical strength is a value-neutral quality, you know. It doesn't make one more or less admirable or worthy of being listened to. I hope you know that.

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(Anonymous) - 2012-10-13 22:12 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2012-10-13 22:15 (UTC) - Expand

I don't get why he's even considered morally authoritative at all. He just wanted to be a hero and do heroic things and beat up bullies and was obsessed with proving himself and with not feeling guilty or worthless for staying home. I never got the feeling that a feeling of responsibility to stop people from getting hurt or a desire to help people/do good for its own sake was his primary motivation like it was for Thor, Tony, and Bruce. He was more like Clint and Natasha in that regard -- doing good things to find meaning in his life/make up for his perceived inadequacies. He's very admirable for his courage and level-headedness and tactical skill, but morally? Ehhhh....

/double-checks anon for very obvious reasons

Um. Are we talking about movieverse Captain America? Because while I can't speak to the comics, if you're talking about the movies, then I'm not sure we watched the same movie. He didn't want to "be a hero." He wanted to do his part. It wasn't about "feeling guilty and worthless for staying home" -- it was about feeling like he had to go and serve because people were needed. He never thinks of himself as a hero; even after the serum, he refers to himself as "just a kid from Brooklyn." Feelings of responsibility to stop people from getting hurt and a desire to help people are entirely what he's about. Did... that not come across when you saw his movie?

And... Did you just say that Tony and Bruce are driven to do good for its own sake, rather than to make up for perceived inadequacies? I mean, I love Tony to bits, but his primary motivation for putting on the suit was always "I have to make up for the suffering I have caused."

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(Anonymous) - 2012-10-14 06:31 (UTC) - Expand

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intrigueing - 2012-10-14 06:50 (UTC) - Expand

I think it's really the other way around: Being Captain America doesn't make Steve's opinion the moralist high ground; Steve's strong moral compass is what makes him Captain America.

I'm hit or miss in the comics, but in the movies, it seems pretty clear that what makes him a hero worth respecting isn't the costume or what he stands for on stage, it's what he personally stands for and believes in.

Pretty much. I always considered that Cap was one of those characters who is the hero, the outfit's not really a costume because he doesn't actually change when he puts it on.

Granted I've only seen the movies, but based on what I've heard of the comics lately I'm glad of that.

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truxillogical - 2012-10-14 02:36 (UTC) - Expand

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intrigueing - 2012-10-14 06:36 (UTC) - Expand

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truxillogical - 2012-10-14 08:14 (UTC) - Expand

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intrigueing - 2012-10-14 14:09 (UTC) - Expand

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insanenoodlyguy - 2012-10-14 08:50 (UTC) - Expand

I think it's really the other way around: Being Captain America doesn't make Steve's opinion the moralist high ground; Steve's strong moral compass is what makes him Captain America.

This. Exactly this, 100%, all of it.

One of the things I love so much about Steve is that he's a subversion of the asshole-American-who-thinks-he-knows-best trope. That he's a genuinely good guy who actually lives up to the hype (and is probably a little embarrassed by the hype). He was everything a superhero ought to be before he ever became a superhero.

Well, he does have military leadership experience in the field, seeing that he fought in WWII. And he had a pretty great record to boot. He is the only one in the group that has that. Thor is not going to lead seeing how he doesn't know the planet that well. Black Widow and Hawkeye aren't leaders. They are more solo soldiers. Tony really has no desire to lead the misfits. And Banner... Can you see him planning out and setting up a war party?

Cap is the only clear choice to lead.

I agree with all of this (except the bit with BruceyB, I think he can do whatever he wants, especially if he lets me touch his hair...). I'm pretty sure the whole reason he was chosen for the super-soldier serum stuff was because he had good morals and intelligence (although not enough to realize that if he had time to have a heartfelt conversation with Peggy, he had enough time to direct the plane somewhere it couldn't do any damage before jumping out...). I might be wrong, though. (I saw it at 2 am with enough lager to knock out an elephant to celebrate finishing a 10-page essay. Hooray for college.)

I can't really speak for the comics [The Avengers just weren't my thing], but as far as movie verse goes...I think it's made fairly clear that the guy who chose him for the serum did it because he thought the Cap'n had a very strong moral compase, wasn't afraid to act on said moral compase, and that he was intelligent...Not because he didn't have flaws. IIRC, he did warn Steve that, while the serum would make the good better, it would make the bad even worse.

While I'm sure part of the reason he told Steve that had to do with the Red Skull, I suspect part of that was also letting Steve know what he was getting into [for example, the Cap'n was quite a bit more reckless than he was before he had the serum.] I'd also take that as a fair indicator that the movie/in that verse Steve wasn't exactly considered infallible. Plus, at least from what I remember of the Avengers movie, both he and Tony had fair points when they were arguing with each other, and they were both wrong about some things [same with everyone else imo.]

I interpreted Tony and Steve's arguing more that it seemed everything that came out of both their mouths wrt each other was complete misjudged bullshit that was proved wrong by the end of the movie, but other than that IA, Steve got to become Captain America because he was a good guy from the start, and while yeah, he has flaws, he's generally the most level-headed and the least distracted from what's right by personal issues.

Do they? I don't know about that and really I don't even think it has as much to do with the time period he grew up in as his own personal values about what is right and wrong. I think people admire him because of his conviction to doing the right thing, but he is still just one man. He isn't perfect and from what I could see from the movies he does make mistakes too. I dunno, it sounds like they're taking it too literally if they say that he's right about everything because for me as a fan, I think he has a rigid mentality due to having many personal losses over the course of his life as well as having to adjust to the modern world and that is part of what makes him sympathetic.

Well said. Being such a "good man" with a "strong moral compass" sure didn't stop Cap from being a judgmental, holier-than-thou jackass to Tony about his reasons for becoming Iron Man.

...Yet the Steve/Tony shippers still wonder why the rest of us think they're full of shit for trying to gloss over that like it never happened.

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