fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2112 ]

[ SECRET POST #2112 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2112 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 102 secrets from Secret Submission Post #302.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I love it when people try to read between the lines every time Davis says something. Even if he is just making a joke, some fans take it as the gospel truth. "Special" would be a very good word for this.

I think it's a classic case of selective hearing; they hear what they want and discard the rest. Like during the NYCC panel, when someone asked if Stiles' hinted bisexuality would be explored in canon. The only part of Davis' response was what he said first: "I feel kind of backed into a corner -- that could be spoiler territory." So people flock to tumblr to shriek about how there's some sort of spoiler about Stiles being bisexual! Only if you actually watch the video, he then immediately follows this up with statements like they'd maybe consider that if it felt right for the story, if they had to find some way to keep Stiles' character fresh four seasons in, if Dylan came to him and said he was bored... I'd love to see Stiles portrayed as bisexual, but let's not flip out over something Davis never said, yo.

DA

Parts of the fandom just really don't seem to get that storytelling >>>>> your favorite ship/pet theory/head canon, too. I'd love to see Stiles be bisexual in canon, but I'd rather they didn't shoehorn in something that made no sense with current goings-on or the general narrative or that came off as existing solely to be clunky fanservice. Like, hey, I know this group of bad ass alphas is trying to kill us and we're running for our lives, but I feel like now would be the ideal time for me to announce my sexual orientation!

Right, exactly. And from a character standpoint, they'd have to wrap up Stiles' feelings for Lydia to some extent before a big sexual identity crisis. (Actually, that would be really good timing. Stiles drags his eyes away from Lydia, and bam, he discovers that not only is the world filled with other girls, but also with other boys!) Point is, this would all take time and careful consideration of how it would fit into the show as a whole. If Davis even wants to. Personally, if I were a showrunner and I'd been mapping out character arcs for as long as Davis presumably has, I'd be reluctant to change my ideas at the insistence of my fanbase.

This would be the problem. It would take several episodes to make it believable and in-character, and there are far more important plot points to handle (not to mention rewriting Jackson's part now that Colton is leaving).

I wish that the most obsessed fans would remember that it is a TV show, not an interactive game where you can choose your own ending, if you are loud enough.

It would be kind of a huge deal -- and it could fit in with a more generalized Stiles character arc or overall season theme, like identity perhaps, becoming comfortable with yourself. But it would require a lot of attention, and it would have to be foreshadowed more bluntly than it already has. In short, they'd really have to commit to making Stiles bi. They'd have to really want to do it. And personally, I think they should, because the idea that Davis would intentionally put bisexuality hints in and then never provide the payoff feels a little icky to me. But I also understand why it could take a very long time, and I acknowledge that he may never have intended for those hints to ever have a payoff. And certainly, Stiles being bi does NOT automatically equal his being interested in Derek.

Idk man, it seems like the best policy when dealing with fandom is just to thank them, then ignore them. If you let on that you're malleable, you will be DEVOURED.

Exactly! And honestly, exploring all the stuff that there's not time for/it doesn't make sense to go over in canon is what fanworks are for. There's nothing saying that you can't explore Stiles' sexuality in fic, even if it doesn't make sense for the writers to pay a great deal of attention to it in canon.

I think the thing that kills me the most about the fans that are way too in writers/creators' faces pushing for things is that they would be completely up in arms if someone left a comment on their fanfic/comic/art/whatever saying, "Well, this is nice and all, but I personally really love x, so you should change this picture/story/whatever to fit my preferences and disregard whatever your original plans were." I mean, it's great that some creators are willing to pay attention to fan feedback, but it's really entitled to think that the fact that they're willing to have a relationship with fandom means that fandom gets to call all the shots.

I think it's a stretch to say there would never be time or it would never make sense to develop Stiles' bisexuality in canon, but it would certainly be a commitment and the writers would have to actively want to go there.

Haha, yeah, that kills me too. If someone suggested I change a short story to suit their personal desires (which is not the saying as offering objective critique), I'd be pissed as hell. And that's just a short story; I can't imagine how reluctant I would be to scramble my plans for a TV show, which is a longstanding creative and emotional investment that you have to be happy with in order to write.

Oh no, I don't think that there will never be time to explore Stiles' sexuality in canon. That was poor wording on my part. I just meant to say that if there's never a point where the writers have a chance to work it in, that people shouldn't assume that it's the end of the world. I am all for it making canon, since I'd like to see more positive portrayals of bisexuality in media in general, but like you said, it would be something they'd have to be committed to exploring, and if they're just doing it to please fans, they could easily muck it up.

A lot of people in fandom seem to have problems distinguishing between legitimate critique and being a pushy asshole about things. I can only imagine how frustrated Jeff Davis must be about being constantly bombarded with questions about Sterek. Although I have to admit, that is partially his own fault for opening that door, however unwittingly. They should have a class where they sit down writers/showrunners/other creators the second their stuff starts to get big and explain to them the proper way to approach fandom in the wild. It would save so much heartache in the long run.

Oh yeah, I agree. Shoehorning it in at the expense of character & story would not work. I want to see it done -- but I want to see it done right.

I feel kinda bad for Jeff Davis, because he has clearly had to learn very quickly that everything he says will touch off an explosive chain reaction somewhere in the depths of the internet. He should never have encouraged fandom to think he was receptive to their ideas. It's like feeding one stray cat who meanders onto your stoop; all of a sudden you're a crazy cat lady with twenty feline friends, six of whom are named Trixie. Davis should've taken pointers from Vince Gilligan. That dude doesn't even google the name of his own show.

Now I just want fanart of Jeff Davis as a cat lady.

DA Oh god, the fandom's tendency to read way too much into EVERYTHING that Jeff Davis says kills me. I used to get annoyed with all of the "Jeff Davis said the schooner. A schooner is a ship. OMG STEREK IS TOTES GONNA BE CANON GUYS!" crap, but then I reached the point where I decided to stop giving a fuck and now I just sit back with my popcorn and watch things unfold. I'm all for fandom meta and discussions and speculation, but TW fandom takes it to a whole new level of ridiculousness.

Especially considering the actual canon is not that well-written sooooo how much can you meta anyway? Unless it's like the SPN version of meta, which is either gushing about the characters or trying to shovel plotholes full of fanwank.

Right? At first I just assumed that it was because a lot of the online fandom is younger (and not to say all younger fans take things too literally, but there tends to be a bit of a learning curve when you're new to fandom), and it was just a baby's first fandom type deal, but I really don't think that's the case. It's kind of baffling. You guys aren't new.

One theory I heard recently is that embittered Supernatural fans are jumping ship for the S.S. Sterek. It makes sense; the two shows are similar in tone and content, and Stiles/Derek has more than a passing resemblance to early Dean/Castiel -- an antagonistic alliance between a stone-faced, sharp-tempered supernatural creature and a witty human, wherein emotional damage abounds? Check. SPN fans have become acclimatized to a culture of fanservice, limited boundaries, and wild entitlement. If Teen Wolf fandom is a mixture of fandom newbies and Supernatural veterans, it explains a LOT.

That actually does make sense. I'm a fan of both SPN and Teen Wolf, and I have seen a lot of overlap between the two fandoms. And I actually still enjoy both shows (well, saying I "enjoyed" S7 of SPN might be stretching it a bit), but a lot of the issues with TW fandom do seem to be carry overs from SPN and/or rehashed wank. And having super shipping focused, kind of wanky people from SPN fandom making all the new fans in TW fandom their fandom padawans is... not good. And I say this as someone who enjoys shipping and meta and all that shit. It's just... there's a line people. Let the writers do their thing and stop trying to dictate where you think the show should go. And, you know, actually stop to listen to what the creators are saying before frothing at the mouth and going off on wild-ass tangents and starting campaigns and all that other ridiculousness.

I'm a fan of both shows as well, and I noticed a little while ago how many TW/SPN crossovers I was stumbling across, and how many people I saw in Sterek fandom that I already knew from Dean/Cas fandom, how many people were quite obviously involved in both fandoms... so the SPN migration theory makes sense AND is observable. That's almost science.

I agree with you re: shipping-focused Superfans. I had a fantabulous time in SPN fandom but holy god, the fourth wall is a miserable tattered piece of tarp lying shredded on the GROUND in that fandom. And certainly, we outwanked everyone except Twilight and Harry Potter. So I'm pretty sure we're a terrible influence on TW fandom, and Jeff Davis' inability to establish firm boundaries isn't helping.

It also seems like the people who were convinced that Dean/Cas HAD to become canon are a lot of the same people who are captaining the SS Sterek. And as someone who does enjoy both pairings (although I'm one of the no-let's-just-stick-with-fic people, partially because I am old and cranky), the similarities are definitely there and noticeable. Especially when you take into account the fanon representations of both pairings. It's like the disillusioned Dean/Cas fans decided that they would build fanon Sterek in their image or something. One of my friends who got into the show after reading fic couldn't get over how different Stiles and Derek and their interactions were on screen compared to what she'd read. Which is probably part of the problem, too - all the people entering the fandom via fanfic and then ignoring canon in favor of the ideas they've already formed about the characters based on what they've read. It's like a neverending fanon feedback loop.

I'm at the point with SPN where I basically just talk about it to my friends and do my best to ignore everything else. Well, except the occasional super wank, since sometimes those can be hilarious to observe from afar. Lol.

I'm not involved in TW fandom enough to know who captains the ship, but I have seen some D/C fans that I knew to be particularly intense hanging around the TW tags on ONTD and tumblr.

Yeah, actually, does it also strike you that Stiles/Derek and Dean/Cas are misrepresented in fanon in very similar ways? Even when their relationship was at its most comfortable, D/C always had a combative friction to it. Stiles/Derek is almost exclusively combative friction, with a could-be-pretty-kinky age difference thrown in. But in fic these complicated relationships are frequently boiled down to a sappy true love kind of deal. I have to say, I was sold on trying out TW based on the enthusiasm of its slash fanbase, and Sterek is... not what I was expecting. Between the two, Dean/Cas is the more intense relationship, with at least a strong canonical war-buddies bond to back it up. So I can really see D/C fans trying to mold Sterek into new!D/C, now that pretty much everything in SPN is old and tired and not fun anymore.

Yeah, I definitely think that both pairings are misrepresented in fanon in very similar ways. The SPN fandom's tendency to water down or woobify Cas is a pretty good mirroring of the way that the Teen Wolf fandom likes to woobify Derek, and to a lesser degree, the woobification of both Stiles and Dean. Cas is a warrior of god and a pretty bad ass dude, but so many people seem to overlook that in favor of having him be the damsel in distress or someone who's there to be perfect and fix all Dean's problems through true love. Dean's not exactly good at love and romance or dealing with his feelings, but a lot of people tend to write that off so they can just have Dean and Cas get to the fluffy soul mates with a house and two dogs bits. With Teen Wolf, a lot of the fandom seems to ignore that Derek was taken advantage of by Kate when he was presumably around Stiles' age and probably has a gazillion issues when it comes to sexual relationships (on top of all the other issues he has from his family dying horrible deaths and being betrayed by his uncle), and also that he's kind of terrible about opening up to anyone. And when it comes to Stiles, they tend to gloss over the fact that he can and is a dick at times. I mean, I love Stiles, but he said that Scott should just let Derek die and said that they should just kill Jackson how many times this season? And some of the crap he said to Matt before they found out Matt was controlling the kanima, so it was rather unprovoked is just... ouch. And let's face it, for as hard as he tries, Derek is kind of a terrible alpha. And yet a lot of fanon portrays him as being the world's most awesome alpha and Stiles as being the pack "mother" who loves everyone unconditionally and just... it boggles my mind. I mean, I get that sometimes you just want to write happy fluff and I am all for that. But you can do that without giving character personalities and relationships a complete 180 or ignoring the complicated bits of the relationships that make them what they are in the first place.

And half the time this stuff doesn't even seem to be a case of interpreting characters and pairings in different ways. It just comes off as blatantly ignoring all the parts of canon that people don't want to deal with. And some of those parts are what make the pairings interesting and draw people to them in the first place! The fact that Dean and Cas have a very up-and-down relationship and can be very antagonistic with each other gives them this really interesting dynamic and makes it really fun to imagine how they'd play off of each other in certain situations. They've been through a lot of shit and not all of it is good, and they've both fucked up along the way, but all of that makes their relationship seem more real. The same thing goes for Stiles and Derek (who, yeah, are basically ALL combative friction on-screen at this point, like you said). They're reluctant allies at the best of times right now, but the snark and the way their personalities play off one another is really fun to watch. So... why erase all that?

And, yeah, I do think a lot of Dean/Cas shippers were just tired of SPN and needed a new pairing to latch onto. Not that that means Sterek isn't a great pairing; their dynamic is really interesting! It's just not quite what a lot of fanon has built it up to be. But then again, I know that a lot of people who were involved in the fandom and even some of the fic writers early on (and perhaps even still, I dunno) hadn't bothered to actually watch the show because they'd assumed it would be shitty, so their knowledge of canon were based on gif sets they'd seen on Tumblr or fic that they read or what friends who'd watched the show said. Which, you know, those things are great, but they're not exactly a substitute for the actual canon. And I know people who read fic for shows that they don't watch, but when people try to write for shows that they haven't watched and have only read fic for, it can kind of conflate or spread some of those fanon ideas.

... holy shit, that was long. My apologies. Apparently I have a lot of feelings about this subject.

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I have started to suspect this as well. Hopefully the RPF shippers will stay the hell out, because that's a full-blown train wreck waiting to happen.

Didn't some members of the TW cast live together? I'm having J2 flashbacks.

NAYRT

Pretty sure Holland and Colton lived together and Dylan and Posey lived together. Actually, I think that maybe Hoechlin lived with Dylan and Posey during the first season, too?

There's already starting to be hate on Dylan and Posey's girlfriends, too. Waiting for the tinhats and the "they're just beards pushing the het!" to start popping up, tbh.

I have this horrible feeling like I'm about to discover spn_gossip all over again. :/

I haven't really seen a lot of tinhats in TW fandom, but you never know. Maybe once they've had a year or so more to build up their bitterness and batshit levels, they will emerge.