fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2147 ]

[ SECRET POST #2147 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2147 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

__________________________________________________

02.

__________________________________________________

03.

__________________________________________________

04.

__________________________________________________

05.

__________________________________________________

06.

__________________________________________________

07.

__________________________________________________

08.

__________________________________________________

09.

__________________________________________________

10.

__________________________________________________

11.

__________________________________________________

12.

__________________________________________________

13.

__________________________________________________

14.

__________________________________________________

15.

__________________________________________________

16.

__________________________________________________

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 100 secrets from Secret Submission Post #307.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - vader trolls and probably more later ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I've heard people bitch about Moffat a lot here, about the Doctor Who and Sherlock fandoms, but can someone give me some rants about why? The only criticisms of him I have understood was the fact that he has some weird faux-feminist misogyny, but I think people have a lot of other problems with him as well, am I correct? However, since no one seems to really explain it, it feels like everyone is in on some joke I'm not getting.

In any case, I'd appreciate some vitriol and analysis being vented here!

I just don't like his writing very much. Same with Joss Whedon and Neil Gaiman, really.

Isn't the misogyny enough?

If not then know that he's in charge of two of the most beloved icons of British television and he's steadily fucking them up with poor treatment of female characters (Irene!) and overly-complicated story arcs where he thinks adding paradoxes and the same repetitive lines and jokes were the same as plot. Also all his grand finales recently haven't paid off at all. So many people I know stopped watching Doctor Who :/

I'm skeptical of the idea that it's possible to truly fuck up the "Doctor" part of Doctor Who -- no end date in sight, so no matter how bad it gets, it's always possible for it to bounce back, it's nigh-impossible to ruin the character because he's so expansive, nigh-impossible to ruin the concept because it's so resilient, and if things go worst-case-scenario levels of bad, they can always fix things with a regeneration and/or some timey-wimey-ness.

However, that doesn't mean I'm not pissed about him fucking up companions who I get invested in short-term (Oh darling Ponds...;_;)

Yeah, the most people will really do is collectively declare it non-canon. Like the way they love and cherish the only Highlander movie that's ever been made.

Is faux-feminist misogyny not enough or do just want specific examples of that?

OP:

No, that's definitely "enough" to hate him, but it seems that people have problems with things about his writing that don't have anything to do with misogyny, so I wanted to understand what those were about.

I feel like he values the "WOW! THAT'S SO FREAKIN' COOL!" reaction more than he values steady, sensical character building and plot development. While that works fine when you're one writer of a show under someone who values the opposite (even if it's RTD, who goes perhaps too far into the schmaltz), when you're the showrunner you should maybe use a little restraint in the "THIS WILL BE AWESOME WATCH IT!!!" department and just let things...develop for good reasons? It's, Doctor Who, you get stuff like "the crack", and then the mystery of wtf is going on with Amy seeing that lady with the eyepatch, and then omg where did River go?! Which had good payoff episodes, I think; "The Pandorica Opens", "A Good Man Goes to War", "Let's Kill Hitler" are subjectively pretty cool episodes and the acting in them is solid. But overall I feel like the characters don't develop in tune to the massive fuckery they've been put through.

Also, I'm not a huge fan of how he spoils his own emotional climaxes, arguably one of the things he's better at, by talking about them in interviews and (before he deleted it) his twitter account so much. Oh, "Angels Take Manhattan" is going to be sad, is it? Maybe it would have been IF HE'D SHUT UP ABOUT IT. Same for Sherlock.

I could go on about lots of little things, but in short, Moffat is so jaw-droppingly, impressively brilliant at ruining good ideas and creating wasted potential it must be a unique form of genius.

Question: Who can write an episode entitled "Lets Kill Hitler" that involves, in no particular order, the Doctor mincing around in a tuxedo just for the hell of it, Rory punching Nazis, Rory punching Hitler, miniaturized Nazi-hunters from the future piloting a ship that looks like Amy that shoots agony beams out of her mouth trying to kill Hitler, a human petty criminal just up and hijacking the TARDIS to travel back in time to kill Hitler, sarcastic killer robotic antibodies, Rory and Amy bitching at the Doctor to come pick them up via writing in crop circle messages with their car, impromptu motorbike chases through Berlin, naked Germans running through the streets screaming, and the exchange HITLER: "You may have just saved my life!"/DOCTOR: "Believe me, it was accident!"...and yet somehow put it all together in the form of a sappy faux-tragic Mary Sue fanfic?

Answer: Steven Moffat can!

...wow.

That's a real shame, because that sounds like it could have been hilarious.

It was hilarious, but there easily could have been SO MUCH MORE of it, and it could've been done SO MUCH BETTER. If Moffat wasn't capable of doing some stuff right, no one would hate him because no one would care. People hate him because he wastes the great stuff he comes up with so stupidly.

You should still check the episode out though, because on its own it's still pretty damn enjoyable.

Something he actually said: "Asexuals are boring to write about"

Fuck you, Steven. Just because YOU'RE an uncreative jackass obsessed with sex doesn't mean everyone is.

Edited 2012-11-18 22:06 (UTC)

I hadn't heard that one before. Idiot. That's like saying "Men are boring to write about." "Heterosexuals are boring to write about." "Children are boring to write about."

It's a poor handyman that blames his tools, and it's a poor writer that blames the subject. A decent writer can make anything exciting if they want.

And the thing that bugs me, he's talking Sherlock Holmes! Tell me, when people talk about Sherlock Holmes--hell, even in regards to BBC!Sherlock--do they talk about what a ladies man he is? And all that wonderful sex he has? No, they don't. Because Sherlock Holmes is a really amazingly interesting character WITHOUT that. Seriously, if you don't think you can make Sherlock goddamn Holmes interesting without sexing him up, you FAIL as a writer.

And for the record, I'm not too happy with some of the sex stuff in Elementary, either.

Re: Examples of why people hate Steven Moffat?

(Anonymous) - 2012-11-19 00:51 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Examples of why people hate Steven Moffat?

fenm - 2012-11-19 01:10 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Examples of why people hate Steven Moffat?

(Anonymous) - 2012-11-19 01:29 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Examples of why people hate Steven Moffat?

fenm - 2012-11-19 02:29 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Examples of why people hate Steven Moffat?

(Anonymous) - 2012-11-19 04:09 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Examples of why people hate Steven Moffat?

fenm - 2012-11-19 04:59 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Examples of why people hate Steven Moffat?

(Anonymous) - 2012-11-19 05:41 (UTC) - Expand

Really? Jesus, what bullshit. I automatically lose a measure of respect for writers who make sweeping generalizations about writing like that.

Like Joss Whedon (who I actually do like a lot of things about) saying "Happy people make for boring television." Um, no, people being happy all the time usually make for boring television. Happy people, period, only make for boring television if you're a lazy, uncreative hack who can't mine complexity and meaning out of the human condition unless your characters are being jerked around and handed problems by external forces (including "acting OOC because the writers said so" under "external forces", btw).

That right there is my biggest issue with Joss. I personally think it's a lot easier to write tragedy than it is to write happy people and happy stories. He uses that as an excuse for either his laziness or lack of talent or personal issues with happiness or all of the above.

Re: Examples of why people hate Steven Moffat?

(Anonymous) - 2012-11-19 05:45 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Examples of why people hate Steven Moffat?

unicornherds - 2012-11-19 06:59 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Examples of why people hate Steven Moffat?

(Anonymous) - 2012-11-19 07:15 (UTC) - Expand

Yeah... Joss Whedon. I like some of his stuff, but I hate some of the shit he pointlessly puts his character through for the sake of "drama".

Re: Examples of why people hate Steven Moffat?

elaminator - 2012-11-18 23:55 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Examples of why people hate Steven Moffat?

(Anonymous) - 2012-11-19 05:41 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Examples of why people hate Steven Moffat?

intrigueing - 2012-11-19 06:43 (UTC) - Expand

I keep trying to type out a response to this and it's not working. (TOO MUCH ANGER.) So: WHAT A DICK.

Re: Examples of why people hate Steven Moffat?

fenm - 2012-11-19 00:04 (UTC) - Expand

I just googled "why is Steven Moffat a jerk?" and found plenty to pick from but this is probably the most concise: Steven moffat is a Douchebag: The Masterlist

Lots of quotes and links to articles. Maybe that'll help with your personal analysis.

Reading this list actually made me feel kind of sorry for the guy, because some of the things held against him seem to be not as blatantly offensive as the list-maker seems to think they are.

He still sounds like a twerp who's way too impressed with his own talent, but... I don't know. I guess I'm just contrary.

Re: Examples of why people hate Steven Moffat?

unicornherds - 2012-11-19 03:50 (UTC) - Expand

He comes up with these amazing cool ideas that suck viewers in and make them emotionally invested, but he can't leave them at that -- noooooooo, he has to tie them into big mysterious epic arcs and top them constantly to seem even cooler!!! In the process of which, the stuff stops being cool and starts being fucking annoying and lame. Basically, he's a great writer of standalones when he has to write within the parameters of a show he doesn't run, but he can't keep his hands off the shiny or see things with perspective when he's got UNLIMITED POWAAAAHHHHHHH.

Also, two words: River Song.

This. I loved his Doctor Who episodes in RTD's era - they were my favourites. But he is not a good showrunner. At all. I wish he'd just realise that sacrificing character development and consistency in order to make the plot 'mysterious' and 'intriguing' is just not a good way to write.

It's the overall trend of his writing towards misogyny and "tearjerker" moments, for me. Women are undervalued in his writing, and basically everything *has* to end in horrible, heartbreaking tragedy. It's getting a bit predictable.

Basically, Moffat can come up with great scenes, but can't develop characters and story arcs without fucking up his own canon or being idiotic and offensive. So every episode he writes is a balance between awesomeness and headdesking. The more arc-y and story-driven and character-driven an episode is, the more the headdesking outweighs the awesomeness.

For example, "Let's Kill Hitler". On one hand, it wastes approximately thirty minutes of potential kicking of Nazi ass and general 1930s German shenanigans on River Song becoming Sexy Speshul Space And Time Jesus. On the other hand, it involves Rory punching Hitler in the face and yelling at him to shut up. It's a delicate balance. ;)

Personally, I think the hate is a bit extreme. Yes, he has his problems. But so did RTD. Personally, I'm at least relieved that older woman are finally allowed to be sexual. And it frustrates me how people point out Moffatt's sexism while ignoring RTD's. IMHO, both have equally good and equally bad things in their writing. It is just that a lot of people liked RTD's stuff better and so notice Moffatt's faults more.

Basically, some of it is subjective and some of it isn't. There is a lot of sexism, yes. But the criticisms of the writing and the storylines and characters are completely subjective and not something everyone agrees with. Personally I loved both seasons 5 and 6. I loved the arcs of those seasons and the characters Moffatt created.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only