fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2148 ]

[ SECRET POST #2148 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2148 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 080 secrets from Secret Submission Post #307.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 2 3 4 - doing a bit of troll-weeding ].
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Everyone knows black people can't be affected by institutionalised racism, and unwittingly perpetuate it.

Like how if a guy criticises slut shaming by a group of women he should shut the fuck up, because not having tits magically precludes him from understanding everything involved.

After all if only minority groups stand up for something that makes it more likely to succeed and enter the popular concious. Better to keep those dirty allies out of it, their privilege utterly blinds them from everything.

But don't you think it's problematic to be telling a group of oppressed people that they're WRONG about something that directly affects then and not you?

IAWTC

Not necessarily.

I mean it certainly can be, but it isn't by virtue of them not being part of the oppressed group.

The rightness of ones argument, or the wrongness of ones acts isn't dependent on you happening to fall into a group or not - that just makes it more likely to be the case, that you'll miss obvious flaws or forms of discrimination or fail to see related issues.

And I've seen it happen plenty of times. I'll fully admit I've got the three biggest privileges (class, race, sex) - but in those areas I don't, I've seen people of the same group as me spewing some really stupid ideas, and then screaming someone down on the basis of them not being part of the group. It's part of the whole reductive identity politics, and utter subjectivity of experience that so dominates a lot of activist spheres that I find to be a serious issue, and it drives me away from them. Analytic over continental 4 lyfe.

I'll bring up another example. More women are pro life, and rape apologists then men. And by a statistically significant margin. Would it follow then that a pro-choice man telling a woman she was wrong for being pro-life is problematic? It certainly doesn't seem that would be the case. But surely that is what follows from your argument right?

Can't you see how completely patronizing and offensive it is to the oppressed party to be further oppressed by an outside party telling them their wrong about something they have to live with daily?

Just because you think you're on the side of all that is good and holy does not mean you have the right try to "put me in my place" - because that's exactly what you're advocating - putting minorities in their place least they behave badly.

You're silly!

Yeah, I know.

I mean, wanting to be treated like an adult instead of a poor, ignorant minority who needs a white guy to tell me how to think and behave properly? How silly can I get?

You can get silly enough to talk to the white guy, that's what.

The white guy isn't deserving of our time if that's how he's going to behave.

oh you're one of those "I'm an ally, give me a cookie!" people

an ally's job is to create more safe spaces and opportunities for minorities, not to tell them what they can and can't do or say or use to cope with their circumstances. hth

No, that wouldn't be a fair summary of me I don't think.

An 'allies' job is to argue for, and spread the ideas they believe in be it through public persuasion, personal support, legislation, or any other myriad avenues available to them.

Homophobia, sexism, etc aren't wrong because they personally affect you, and that sucks. They're inherently wrong, and it's the duty of every right thinking person to oppose them and help those affected.

Praise has nothing to do with it.

ok thank you for explaining the minimum standards for being a decent human being to me, I guess?

That doesn't make what I just said any less true. Allies don't get to tell minorities they're doing it wrong. Stop it.

When they're actually doing it wrong they get to though.

I mean you are treading down a problematic path here like my comment to the other anon highlighted.

No they fucking don't.

An "ally" telling a minority what to do, even if it's "for the best" is still fucking oppressive and silencing and it's bullshit. You don't get a free pass on talking over minorities because YOU think it's ~damaging to the cause~ when you have NEVER been affected by what they experience every single goddamn day of their lives. It's patronizing, it's annoying and worst of all it's hypocritical as fuck.

If someone is really being a piece of shit and unloading their internalized -isms all over everyone, LET THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY AFFECTED BY IT SPEAK UP FOR THEMSELVES. WE DON'T NEED YOU TO FUCKING DECIDE FOR US.

Sit down and shut the fuck up. It won't kill you. You can deal with not being the center of attention for a while.

You are being ridiculous.

I've been on both sides of this, so don't preach to me with your bullshit lines in the sand us vs them mentality.

However, much you may think this to be the case, you're wrong.

If someone wants to call a person out for saying it's wrong to say faggot for example - I don't give a shit if they're straight or not. They're speaking sense, and they have the right to tell the gay person claiming it's okay that they're wrong.

If that's oppressive and silencing then stick a red arm band on me and put me in some hugo boss.

oh you have every right to call someone out for it-just don't be surprised when a gay man calling himself a faggot tells you to shut the fuck up because he has a fucking right to decide for himself how to use the words that have oppressed him and he doesn't need an "ally" to try to tell him how to be a ~good gay person~. Don't be surprised when a sexually liberated woman calls herself a slut because she is happy with that label and proud of it. Don't be surprised when a black person calls themselves "the n-word" because they find it empowering and liberating to reclaim something that has been used to put them down for centuries.

It is not about you and your feelings and by trying to tell minorities how they SHOULD be acting you ARE making it about you and you ARE fucking silencing and oppressing us. Let us decide for OURSELVES what to do.

An ally's role is not to lecture minorities about what you THINK they should do, it is to support them and let them speak for themselves.

Ah yes, the perennial I choose my choice therefore it's empowering.

The complete retreat into subjectivity and freedom from any value judgement, by anyone not you.

Well no man is an island, and if another non-straight man thinks it's okay to tell all his straight friends to use faggot and people are just being babies if they disagree (personal example) then I would be perfectly happy to have an ally come in and tell him that's not acceptable - because shockingly, that isn't acceptable, and his actions don't just affect himself.

Which brings me back to my earlier analogy. A man telling a pro-life woman that she is wrong, is that oppressing and silencing? To obvious answer seems to highlight the self evident flaw in the argument you;re making here.

p.s. what is with the way all you people type in all caps and italics. It legitimately makes you come off as a nutter.

So a man telling a pro-life woman she has the right to choose, AS LONG AS SHE MAKES THE CHOICE NOT TO BE PRO-LIFE, is totally cool?

I think you've confused the meaning of 'choice' there. Choice means letting someone pick between, you know, choices. Not "Your only option is to pick A or B, but you can't pick A"

To clarify I guess.

A man telling a woman supporting pro-life legislation, as part of her overall pro-life beliefs that she is wrong.

Yes [ ]

No [ ]

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-11-20 20:05 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

ill_omened - 2012-11-20 20:40 (UTC) - Expand

There's a difference between making a choice to be pro-life for yourself and trying to make that choice for other people.

Ok, I'm done here. It's clear you are a patronizing piece of shit who uses being an ally as an excuse to exercise the same oppressive bullshit racists, homophobes and sexists use to oppress people like me. But at least they're fucking honest about it.

You are no "ally" of mine, or any minority out there.

(no subject)

ill_omened - 2012-11-20 20:50 (UTC) - Expand

DA

Except they're really not. Deciding what's 'okay' for a minority to be offended by, and what isn't, is just as condescending and oppressive as the opposite. The difference is that what you're doing is a 'No, no, it's okay. I know what's ~really~ best for you!' way, which treats the minority like children who can't decide for themselves.

And I've also been on both sides of this - including being in the receiving end of the 'You can't say you're okay with people using that word!!!1!' bullshit.

If anybody is making it us vs. them, it's you. You think "Us" needs to educate "Them" on what's right and wrong even if "They" are the oppressed party that has to deal with this type of stuff on a daily basis whereas "We" are outside observers.

Yeah, this... I mean, a guy won't fully appreciate what it's like being a woman and having to deal with misogyny, and white person won't fully appreciate what it's like being basically anything non-white and dealing with racism, but that doesn't mean they're automatically more misogynistic or racist than a woman or a minority.

What you're describing doesn't sound like an ally at all. Just a bitter, albeit well-intentioned, person who doesn't know when to back off and stop talking over the voices they think they're trying to help.

Your dude that criticises slut-shaming is cool to do so, but definitely uncool to actually believe he does understand everything involved about something he's not likely to experience.

that's the bit about acknowledging privilege yo :U

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