Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2012-12-02 03:05 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2012-12-02 03:05 pm
[ SECRET POST #2161 ]
⌈ Secret Post #2161 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 098 secrets from Secret Submission Post #309.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
But then I live in areas and social groups where this sort of thing is common across all spectra - i.e. using racist, sexist, homophobic words, even if you support those groups. Some of the biggest LGBT allies will use those same words as well as the worst homophobes.
Using "gay" as a synonym of "stupid" is stupid and crude, and should absolutely be discouraged. But it doesn't mean the person using it as such is automatically homophobic, it just means they're stupid and don't quite realize how words like these can ultimately hurt people.
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The folk in my community also use words like fag, dyke, or, "that's so gay." The difference is that we're taking back words. I'm not discounting that even people in the lgbt community can be homophobic, or generally bigoted, and do use them as negatives, but I'll be assed if people outside of it want to play as if it is harmless.
I do agree about calling the insult harmful, rather than the person. But I'm not going to jump to defend people who choose to use them because they somehow think being called on their stupidity is worse.
no subject
Most serious case I can think of is guys making sandwich jokes or get back to the kitchen jokes, and turning around and laughing at another one who tries to vote against birth control or equal pay because it doesn't immediately occur to them that the latter isn't joking. To a few of my male friends over the years, the idea that any modern guy would genuinely believe women shouldn't have birth control or equal pay (at least in our area) is so ludicrous, when they hear things like that from someone in 'real life' (and not a crazy right-winger on TV), their default assumption is that it's a joke.
I'm certainly not defending her. I'm just saying it's pretty incorrect to call her a homophobe when so far, there doesn't seem to be any real evidence of it. Stupidity =/= bigotry, it just happens to often lead to it. That's a distinct difference we need to pay attention to and acknowledge, or else lose or alienate potential allies in the process of trying to just discourage this plain stupidity. Just look at what happened with Grey DeLisle.
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Though, personally, I wouldn't extend that benefit of doubt to people I don't know. And with your friends not comprehending that asshole views can come from anyone, or that they are a thing that is real and commonly held, that's some wonderful naivety they get to have, because I and others not them never will as the actual butt of their ironic jokes.
And no. If potential allies are going to talk over the groups they want to defend, I don't care to have them. You don't get to use hateful language like gay fairy love songs, and then claim tone argument like a total hypocrite against the people you hurt regardless of intent to do so.
I don't remember the specifics of what happened with Grey Delisle other than that sjws attacked her on twitter/tumblr.
no subject
As for potential allies - do they realize how hateful it is? I'd rather have to spend some time talking to someone, explaining why their language isn't funny, and get another ally, rather than just start calling them a bigot and lose them completely. Maybe it's more labor intensive, but it's worth a hell of a lot more in the long run.
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In "the long run", I know a lost cause when I see one. Someone else, you perhaps, can take the job of reprogramming assholes.
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Someone else, you perhaps, can take the job of reprogramming assholes.
See, that's just it - I can't, not when I only end up coming in after SJW assholes who turn potential allies permanently against us. If SJWs would at least shut up, if they're not going to help us or educate them, it would be another thing entirely. But they are so convinced they can turn the world around on their own they alienate as many people as possible without any consideration to how this affects the big picture in terms of progressive rights.
no subject
f Delisle isn't an ally anyways, that really is up to her. I don't see everyone as potential conquests of conversion or whatever, You can't assume they will be receptive to what you have to say, just because you say something in kinder terms (just as it's also wrong to assume personal attacks or threats would also make a point).
I'm sorry that it feels like sjws essentially beat you to people, and sour folk's impressions of general sj. I find they spread misinformation more than they do simply vent annoyingly, and that is harmful, especially when the response to them becomes ridiculing their actual points too. But bigotry isn't new, it's been around since forever, and they're not to blame. It's cool that you are willing to keep talking to stubborn people, seriously. I view it as effective as talking to a wall, and not worth the time to assume everyone says crude things because they simply don't know any better. OP's mjh and your Delisle are adults. They know better.
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That's where the neutrality comes from - not realizing there is a problem in the first place or how extensive that problem really is. People use words because they hear the people around them using them, and often have no idea about the history of these words - after all, it's not like they look up the history of every word they've used ever to make sure it's okay. Most kids under a certain age these days - I'd say my own age or even a little older than it, in some regions - have no idea that the word "retarded" was actually once used as a non-insulting reference to mentally disabled people. I'm in college and just last semester, I had a teacher pause a documentary from the 1980s to explain this to students, some of whom have never run into that concept before that point. As far as most of these kids know "retarded" is just a word for "stupid". And they're not going to look up the history of the word. Why bother? They already know how it use and that's what counts, the same way most of us wouldn't look up the history of the word "giraffe" or "table" when we first hear it, we just start using it as it is presented to us.
That's how they hear it used, that's how they will use it, and that's how they will keep on using it until someone doesn't just say "it's a bad word" but why it's a bad word. Yes, some or even most people will keep going on using it, but there are many who will stop once they start to grasp the severity of the harm their language can cause.
I don't want SJWs to be the first contact with SJ those people have - because instead of becoming allies or even just toning down harmful language, they'll turn against us all and use that kind of language even more and start to hate minorities more out of bitterness built up from such negative interactions in the first place.
no subject
Sure, a lot of people don't study the etymology of the words they use. And a lot of people don't care either way. Bullshit like, "oh but words chaaaange and i didn't mean it THAT way! don't be so oversensitive." Not that it doesn't work, explaining the history and meaning, but definitely not every time. A group of college students are more likely to be open I'd assume, considering the point is to challenge what you and others think. A group of douchebags who don't like being told they're being a specific kind of douchebag? Nah.
"I don't want SJWs to be the first contact with SJ those people have...and start to hate minorities more out of bitterness..."
Are you kidding? Easily affected folk that decide to be racist to so stick it to those meanie SJWs are the kind of people you think would have been your ally? And loud angry voices aren't the only or first ones available to listen to. But hey, generalising and lumping everyone ever into a convenient PC crowd to scoff at is easier than doing your own research or stepping back to ask yourself, "hey. i seem to have upset a lot of people. was it something i said?" The ball's in their court to come to their own conclusions, whether or not they agree or disagree, or just filter in what's easier to respond to. It's just as generalising as the people who finds women crazy bitches because they've had bad experiences with them, or the person who hates immigrants because ooh how annoying those immigrant customers are, and so on.
I want SJWs to stop too, because I don't want actual allies thinking that attacking, threatening, etc. people who slip up is somehow a force for good. Not just because people are going to think I'm just like them and dislike me, or purposefully spite me, because that's a given (eg: "feminazi" and "too politically correct").
no subject
Yes, actually. People forget that when you're not a minority, SJ issues are not the center of your life, and often aren't even in the peripheral zone. Being an ally or not is a whim for those kinds of people, and quite frankly sometimes people are just easily swayed or affected. I'd rather they be swayed in my favor rather than against it.
people are going to think I'm just like them and dislike me
Which is, again, the point I'm trying to make - the Feminazi trope social conservatives love to use to discredit real feminists is really hard to disprove when SJWs are going around acting exactly like that trope. They don't accomplish anything in favor of feminism (or any other social issue) and just add fuel to the bigots' fire.
no subject
As if an annoying group is the reason people like Rush Limbaugh, iirc, even coined that term. They discredit because they disagree with these ideas. They pretend you're censoring them, and pull out whatever misconception they want to apparently prove their points. As far as I'm reading so far, you seem to be getting at sjws doing more harm than the bigots that fuel that fire.
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Again, most of us within these minorities probably grew up using some variation of bigoted language before we learned better, and most of us probably grew up with a few stereotypes before we learned better. Some people learn this stuff later than others. When they do learn this stuff, I'd rather it be someone reasonable who will at least take a moment to stop and say, "I know you think it's just a word, but using it is harmful. Not hurtful - harmful. Here's why, and please try not to use it again," instead of immediately shouting "OMG you fucking racist/sexist/homophobe/whatever". I don't think every person I stop and talk to will listen, I don't even think most will - but the few that will listen are above and beyond a good reason to take a second before I get my rage on.
Talking gets us all a lot more friends than yelling.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-12-05 04:17 pm (UTC)(link)