fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2185 ]

[ SECRET POST #2185 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2185 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[not a repeat; was broken yesterday]

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[not a repeat; was broken yesterday]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 034 secrets from Secret Submission Post #312.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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I know he didn't mean it.

It doesn't matter.

It shouldn't have been said.

He KNOWS he would continue to live.

Wilf was going to die, and Wilf offered to sacrifice himself. It was disgusting for such an immortal, knowledgeable being to take a few kicks at Wilf to make himself feel better.

As far as not getting a reward--are you joking? Ten is pretty stuck up in this way, but he has a fucking time machine and literally anything anyone could want. He's constantly making the dearest of friends, the closest of companions, whole species worship him. He's just not satisfied with them, and that's fine. But in an objective sense, he HAS been rewarded. The TARDIS is the biggest reward anyone could ask for.

concerning The Master: they both committed genocide. They're not that different in some parts...and in the other parts... the doctor hoped that there was still hope for The Master, too.

The Doctor, at least, committed genocide to save many other lives. No one considers this a bad thing. The Master is just evil and kills people for no good reason. It's perfectly rational to not blame the Doctor, and to blame the Master. But the Doctor was supremely selfish to try and keep the Master around.

Wilf was going to die, and Wilf offered to sacrifice himself. It was disgusting for such an immortal, knowledgeable being to take a few kicks at Wilf to make himself feel better.

Maybe that's why Wilf could make that sacrifice. Because his death would be final. No remembering who he was or what he did or what he used to be like.
No getting used to a new body, new voice, new face.

Ten already showed how much he didn't like the idea of waking up suddenly changed one day. Even though the Doctor is something of an immortal, his incarnations still 'die.' Ten would never be Ten again. I don't really think I can fault Ten for wanting to stay Ten. Hearing 'well you'll wake up tomorrow and you'll technically be the same person but also completely different from who you are now' wouldn't really make me OK with dying today, especially if I'd already experienced that before and decided I didn't like it.

I replied to someone else that I agree: it's pretty scary. I don't fault him for being upset, I fault him for being so nasty to Wilf and so melodramatic about changing minds.

I mean, jeez, Doc, you have 12 lives, you've lived a thousand years! I mean, shit, at least there's suicide if you decide you really think that final death is better than change. And clearly the Doctor's never tried that, so I imagine he prefers regeneration. He has the OPTION, something Wilf will never have. When Wilf dies, he has nothing. No dreams, ideas, thoughts, adventures. He'll leave behind people who can never have another memory made with him.

Check your Gallifreyan privilege, is unfortunately what I think I'm saying.

I think it's a totally different situation though. Because the Doctor has the option but he also has a ton of responsibility. We've seen what happened when he wasn't around to fix things (Turn Left). He carried the burden of often being the only one with the knowledge to say tons of people. He couldn't just end it cuz 1)he knows what would happen if he wasn't around to step in, and 2)as Ten shows us, he likes living.

So to be driven to continue living by a burden that often forces you to make a horrible choice that just happens to be less shitty than the other horrible option? And then to have to keep changing your face over and over? Is it really so hard to believe that the Doctor may hit a point where he just wants to stay the same? Keep the same face, the same body, the same voice? I mean, if I'm gonna be forced to live on because my compassion won't let me off myself, I think the least that the universe could do was let me keep my face! It's like when people feel like their lives are spinning out of their control and they do something drastic to try to regain it (e.g cutting their hair, getting a tattoo, mid-life crisis, etc). I see Ten's 'fuck the universe for taking everything from me, including my face!' as kinda like that. Yes, he said awful things to Wilf but I also never really saw it as him saying them to Wilf. I took it more as a case of broken internal monologue. Like him reading his diary out loud. All the dark not-so-nice things a person might think and write where they think no one will see, but multiplied by 100 because Ten is a Timelord and very different from humans, however much he may be similar in certain ways.

People keep citing immortality and regeneration as reasons that Ten shouldn't be angry about dying but I think that when you live forever, constantly moving, never being able to settle, you come to want some sense of permanence. Some control over your life. And while the Doctor may exercise a lot of control over other people's lives, it can be argued that he has no control over his own. Being the last of the race that used to govern time and space kinda forced responsibility on him. He tried turning his back on the rules and doing it his way (i.e doing what he wants (Timelord Victorious) and not doing anything at all (Eleven after the Ponds left), but both times he was drawn back by responsibility and by his nature).

If I had to do all that, I don't think waking up to find I had the same face every morning would be a lot to ask for.

Well, this is annoying. I know I replied to you, but the reply doesn't appear to be here. Damn it. :(

Anyway, I basically said that the Time Lords are really lucky, and the Doctor doesn't seem to realize it. I understand feeling upset and scared and being angry. I know he wasn't really angry with Wilf or really talking directly to him. But I still think it was unnecessary and kinda childish.

And the things like having his life endangered, having to regenerate a lot, etc, are his choice. So while I understand being angry sometimes, it's still not very fair. He doesn't want to settle down, but he could.

And the things like having his life endangered, having to regenerate a lot, etc, are his choice. So while I understand being angry sometimes, it's still not very fair. He doesn't want to settle down, but he could.

See, I honestly don't think he good. For all we fault the Doctor for his god complex, if he just up and said 'fuck it, I'm settling down and I'm not putting myself on the line to help any more people,' we'd all hate him and be pissed that he did. He essentially is a lonely god of sorts. He has that responsibility whether he wants it or not. So I don't think he can just settle. Being the last 'good guy' Timelord left means he doesn't have a choice to be 'neutral/ disinterested guy' Timelord. He's gotta be there because he's always been there. After 900 years, he couldn't just stop. The universe and all the people who know him wouldn't let him, including himself.

Saying 'Timelords are lucky' is a slippery slope. They're in a class all their own, completely different from any other species on the planet. Different rules, different problems, different baggage. To humans, who seem to want to prolong life as much as we can and have as much excitement in our lives as we can take, a TARDIS and the ability to regenerate instead of just dying would seem like the jackpot. But to someone for whom that's part and parcel, it seems to me that yearning for that normality and consistency and simplicity that comes with never changing and settling down is something that a person like the Doctor would eventually develop. The fact that he could never really have that...I think I'd go a little crazy too honestly if I had to deal with and see half the things he has.

I understand he has compelling reasons not to, but I think it is pretty simply true he COULD settle down. The option exists. The power exists to kill himself. The power exists to do this or do that if he ever felt it was too much of a burden. He's not forced to, he just feels personally responsible...which, again, is all him. Obviously wouldn't make for much of an interesting show...

But this is all in relation to him being angry towards Wilf unfairly. I'm not saying I don't understand and mostly agree. I'm saying his actions were uncalled for and ended Ten's arc on a poor note.

Eh I'm gonna have to continue to disagree. Having the capability isn't the same as having the option. Sure, he was absolutely physically capable of stopping and settling down, just as I am physically capable of quitting my job and turning my back on anyone who depends on me. But because people depend on me to do what I do, I don't really have that option.

I agree with you that what he said was out of line and shouldn't have been said to someone. But I never really considered it as him really saying it to Wilf and I think the point was that Wilf understood that. The Doctor was literally raging against the dying light and he couldn't be taken in earnest at that time. Wilf knew that and I think we were supposed to see that too, as much as it upset us to hear those words seemingly directed at Wilf. Wilf was merely the vehicle of the Ten's destruction. I belief Ten would have raged at anyone who wasn't what he expected (i.e the Master).

Except he never "decided he didn't like it" before. He was perfectly fine with it when he regenerated into Ten from Nine. And all the previous times he regenerated, he was also fine. He'd gripe about how his ears were too big and his predecessor's dress sense was crap and how he looked weird and thought weird and felt weird and his teeth are weird and geez, look at that hair, why do I have such bad hair? but he never "didn't like it". It's a natural part of being a Time Lord. All Time Lords do it. He did it. He remembers it, and he's still basically the same person (yes, RTD's "new man walks off with my memories" thing was a completely unsupported asspull that had never happened before) It's not like it was some unique curse that was foisted on him.

I should also not that, as much as I hated Ten's regeneration concept, I though the regeneration was handled very nicely. "oh no oh no this is going to be terrible oh god I don't want to go what if this all is a huge disaster what if something really horrible happens -- wait. Legs! I've still got legs! And sure, my chin's too big and my hair's too long and I'm crash landing, but I've had worse noses! This is just fine! What was I complaining about?" It was like, a nice little gentle, respectful way to defuse Ten's angst without making him look bad, making it seem more like he just was having a really bad time and some really bad anxiety problems at the moment that now all seem a little silly in hindsight, but not bad in any way.

It's a natural part of being a Time Lord. All Time Lords do it. He did it. He remembers it, and he's still basically the same person (yes, RTD's "new man walks off with my memories" thing was a completely unsupported asspull that had never happened before) It's not like it was some unique curse that was foisted on him.

And yet humans are allowed to rage against natural parts of their being all the time, things that are pretty inconsequential compared to your whole body changing in an agonizing way. To just throw out 'it's a part of him. It's natural. He should be OK with it.' isn't fair at all to the individuality of each incarnation. If they all have to feel the exact same about every part of being the Doctor, what's the point of even making him regenerate? Having an incarnation that wants to just say 'fuck regeneration!' makes the Doctor more interesting, IMO. And like you said, having Eleven be so happy to be alive was a great foil. It doesn't diminish Ten's fear at all because it was still an unknown until it had already happened and by then he really was gone. So his fear was both founded (from an individual incarnation perspective) and unfounded (from a regenerating Doctor perspective).

I agree with this...in theory. On paper, I think the idea is unique and cool. I just really didn't like how it was executed -- so over-the-top, so melodramatic, so in-your-face, harped on so frequently, having him not really acknowledge or discuss the fact that his reaction this time WAS different from how he reacted all the other times, or explore WHY he was reacting differently. It's something that only makes sense if you really delve into it and analyze it using material that wasn't even in the episode, and the actually explicit parts of the episode never, ever brought the stuff you talked about up.

So I guess what I'm saying is...from an in-universe perspective, the regeneration was fine. But from an out-of-universe aesthetic perspective of someone watching the episode for the first time, it was really, really irritating, frustrating, and all-around badly written.

I just really didn't like how it was executed -- so over-the-top, so melodramatic, so in-your-face, harped on so frequently,

I definitely agree with this. It was tiring and melodramatic. But I think the people who are like 'HE SHOULD JUST BE OK WITH IT! HE'S DONE IT BEFORE!' are missing out on how his unique feelings make him a more interesting character.

I always thought it was pretty clear that Ten said those words in a sarcastic way. and I always believed that Wilf knew that and wouldn't EVER blame him for that.

he would live, yes, but not like before. Dying is still dying!
He ISN'T immortal. There is still a chance of ACTUALLY dying before the regeneration works. you should know that. and it is his right to fear that.

And about the reward thing: NOW you really want to make him human. in everything. but he isn't. he is from another planet and he grew up with all the talks about time and space and even the TARDIS is a normal device from where he comes from. It's nothing special there... just like regenerations. how can you say that's his reward? It's not a REWARD it's everything he has LEFT.

Killing is killing. No matter for what reason. and I'm sure Ten thought, if there is hope for The Master then there is hope for himself, too. He didn't forgive himself for that yet, even if it was the right decision. It's not that easy.

at last, I'll just copy what I said in my own comment:

This regeneration was unlike others. It didn't happen out of a moment. he had to prepare for it. He KNEW it was coming. (And Eleven learnt from that, when he faced the astronaut.)

I can't believe there are people who pick their favourite regeneration... It's always the doctor. And whatever changed him in his new generation is the result of what happened before.

And about the reward thing: NOW you really want to make him human. in everything. but he isn't. he is from another planet and he grew up with all the talks about time and space and even the TARDIS is a normal device from where he comes from. It's nothing special there... just like regenerations. how can you say that's his reward? It's not a REWARD it's everything he has LEFT.

He stole the TARDIS. It was not owed to him. Having a car is pretty normal in most first world countries, but most people appreciate and are excited about having cars. They like the opportunities it offers him.

And I'm saying there's pretty much no reward that can be offered to him greater than what he already has. I'm sorry, but the Doctor has been rewarded enough. He gets all of time and space as his reward, something almost no other person has.

I can't believe there are people who pick their favourite regeneration... It's always the doctor. And whatever changed him in his new generation is the result of what happened before.

I can't believe you don't understand why one would.

Actually, the TARDIS stole the Doctor ;)

If I were living out of my car, after having donated all my other possessions and time to the better good, I would not consider my effing car to be my "reward" for my good deeds. Just saying.

And if your car was a huge fucking time machine that was bigger than a mansion, could take you anywhere to see anyone? If this car you stole in the first place?

Yeah, a regular damn car might suck then, but we're not talking a regular damn car. We're talking the TARDIS. The Doctor can have ANYTHING. There's really nothing that can be denied to him. What could someone possibly reward him with that he can't already claim?

It's like Bill Gates thinking he deserves a reward for all that money he's been donating to charity--ya still have billions, Bill! I understand feeling sad and lonely, but, no, the Doctor is possibly the luckiest and most privileged person ever, and if people close to him has died, it's either because he killed them or he brought them into dangerous situations.

If this car you stole in the first place?
Hm. Not much of a reward really, perhaps, more like his good deeds are karmic collateral for stealing said TARDIS. (And maybe taking him to places he ought to be is the TARDIS's karmic collateral for stealing a Time Lord....)

but we're not talking a regular damn car. We're talking the TARDIS.
I live in a culture in which cars are very common. Maybe not universal, but certainly common. Such is (was) a TARDIS to a Time Lord.

I understand feeling sad and lonely, but, no,
But someone who has no need for money and can travel has no reason ever to feel sad, amirite? Bill Gates has money! He could come to hate his job and feel isolated from everyone around him, and I'd feel sorry for him BUT he's got nicer stuff than I have, so, eh, fuck 'im, right?

but, no, the Doctor is possibly the luckiest and most privileged person ever,
Well, him and all the other Time Lords, while they were extant.

and if people close to him has died
Or he out-lives them, either in straightforward chronology or because he skips in and out of their lives (e.g. Reinette).

then pleaaaase tell me: why would you pick a favourite regeneration? Tell me. Please.

Because they have completely different personalities and ways of handling things. They have different motivations, ideas, attitudes, everything.

You know a lot of people say "I liked Season 1 character, but not Season 2 character", because changes in that very same character make them unrecognizable and unlikable? You know that people, in real life, grow apart because one or both has changed too much?

"The Master is just evil and kills people for no good reason."

The earlier regenerations of the Master had waaaay more depth than Ten!Master did. The whole "eye of Harmony" thing notwithstanding.

Well, I was more or less remarking on what that regeneration of the Master had done and did. I mean, no matter what you did or why you did it before, "I'm killing billions for fun" is enough to die.

I know he didn't mean it.
It doesn't matter.
It shouldn't have been said.
He KNOWS he would continue to live.

In other news, people sometimes say hurtful things they don't mean when they're tired, scared, and frustrated. Even if they regret it or shortly after explicitly take it back by word or deed, they're still ridiculously awful people!

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[ SECRET POST #2185 ]

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