fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2185 ]

[ SECRET POST #2185 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2185 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[not a repeat; was broken yesterday]

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[not a repeat; was broken yesterday]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 034 secrets from Secret Submission Post #312.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

The whole "I imprinted on you like a baby duckling" thing is just so OTT and LOLtastic, I just...it seriously undermines the Doctor for me, because I'm just cackling too hard to pay anything else any attention, I'm sorry. (And I'm sorry they ever brought it up in NuWho.)

Not seeing a lot of comparison between Amy and Susan; neither one of "the Ponds" seemed really well-fleshed out, to me, tbh. They kind of stumbled around like cardboard cutouts of companions compared to, say, Ian and Barbara, who TO THIS DAY have shippers, and definitely didn't defer to the Doctor as any kind of authority figure or leader, or whatever it was they were going for in that relationship, I couldn't figure it out. (And then they added the whole River Song explanation, which upped the levels of ridiculousness by several orders of magnitude.)

Don't think we'll see much of Nine, Ten, OR Eleven, in thirty years' time, IMO. in the fandom. tbqh.

I don't mean that Amy and Susan were similar as characters, I just mean I think his relationship with her was probably the most paternal he's been with any of his companions, aided by the fact that he met her when she was seven and had trouble seeing her as anything other than Little Amelia Pond (as seen in Lets Kill Hitler and the God Complex).

And of course no one compares to the legendary Ian and Barbara - whose ship is now canon, bitches! Hell yeah!

The whole "I imprinted on you like a baby duckling" thing is just so OTT and LOLtastic, I just...it seriously undermines the Doctor for me, because I'm just cackling too hard to pay anything else any attention, I'm sorry. (And I'm sorry they ever brought it up in NuWho.)

da

I was okay with it. I felt he was basically saying that he really appreciated Amy because she always had him. Basically her whole life has had the Doctor as a presence, so she's someone who grew up with him as a person of trust and love, even if he didn't know it. It was a new experience for him, because here's a person whose wanted him her whole life. I guess it was the same sort of appeal we saw with Reinette.

....you're seriously bringing Girl in the Fireplace as your defence of the "imprints like a duck" theory? Dude, you're not helping your case at all, LOL.

Uh...I don't think the Doctor meant it literally. And I wasn't supporting it as like a genetic predisposition. I was defending it in a metaphorical sense.

HA HA HA HA LOL LET ME CONDESCEND TO YOU TOO

Would you like some tissues for your superiority jizz, my sweet?

Nah, that's my bad nonny, I didn't realize you thought it was metaphorical; if only! It seemed very much to me like they meant it literally.....probably as a backlash to all the fans who wanted a more "alien" Doctor back. Which explains the emo...but still doesn't justify it IMO.

I don't know, I don't think they ever would have used the word 'imprint' seriously, considered what a bad reputation it has in fiction.

Well, they didn't say it, but the whole "You were the first face this face ever saw" is pretty much the definition of imprinting, at least from a biological perspective...but I take it you've never had ducklings follow you around IRL, anon? Because that ups the level of hilarity of DW suggesting it, by several orders of magnitude, let me tell you. :-D

Oh, I know it is. I'm just saying there's no precedent, it was a throwaway line, and it seemed more in the mood of being charming and conveying that she was special to him. At the time he was alone and miserable, so meeting and helping Amy was very important to him. I think he was basically saying "You're unforgettable".

Which would be all well and good, except unfortunately, the character was anything but.

da

Amy might have been forgettable to us, but I can see why she'd be unforgettable to the Doctor. The Doctor is not the same as us. Do you think that because we hated Peri and Mel, the Doctor did? Do you think that because we didn't really love Susan, the Doctor didn't? So I don't see why that line doesn't make sense for him to say, even if we don't feel the same way towards Amy.

Besides, Amy's origin story and characterization WAS pretty memorable. She just didn't get any proper development.

ayrt

...but I kind of liked Mel? (I know, I know.) I see your point, and it's not that the line doesn't make sense; it absolutely makes sense, within the context of the show.

It's just utterly ridiculous, and turns the show into little more than a cartoon, with some off-putting soap opera elements tacked onto it. ^shrug^ Just not my thing, sorry.

See, you keep stating that it makes the show a "soap opera" and "a cartoon", but...why? You don't give any reasons WHY. Can you give me a reason what's so soap opera-ish or cartoonish about the idea of a partially-formed personality that forms itself very fast being heavily shaped by its earliest new emotional connection? It seems more sci-fi-ish than anything to me.

sa

Ew and I just realized you're comparing kid Amy to the French courtesan. Not ok.

He met Reinette as a child, I hope you realized. And mistress was like a title back then, a place of power and position. She wasn't just a prostitute. Historically, Madame de Pompadour was a very intelligent, bright, charismatic woman.

Actually, the comparison goes deeper: he met her as a child who grew up with him as an imaginary character, then met her again later as a beautiful older woman who had the hots for him.

ayrt

Yeah, like I said, that was my bad, I wasn't getting the comparison; tbf I did try to block much of Girl in the Fireplace out of my mind, LOL. I can see where the comparisons are, but honestly, since I personally didn't like the concept in either series, it's not doing much for convincing me that's why Eleven is Emo Elmo, tbqh.

Neither am I a big fan of "Teh Doktar is TEH SECKSS!!!" mentality of NuWho, either. I much preferred it when it was a gen show that was (almost) OK for all ages. But that's just my own thing.

Nah, you're right that Amy was treated really badly by the plot and got really shafted in the character development department from an out-of-universe perspective. But from an in-universe perspective? Er...yes, she was really really important to that particular incarnation of the Doctor and his relationship with her was a lot like how he viewed Susan.

I note that you mention Susan and then suddenly jump to discussing Ian and Barbara. Uhhh...Susan's not Ian or Barbara. Susan was also a rather poorly-developed character, but do you honestly think that because she was poorly developed and not remotely the most awesome companion from our perspective, the Doctor didn't care for her? He probably cared for her more than he ever cared for any other companion ever, for logical, in-universe reasons. That's just what IS, it has nothing to do with her character development.

Also, I'm curious as to why it "undermines the Doctor". Because some random human had a massive impact on him? I mean, the circumstances kinda warrant it: he was regenerating, and he was regenerating alone, and she was the first person he saw in his new form and the first thing he ever did was help her, before his personality was even fully formed. What makes imprinting like that so impossible? It's a really interesting and logical idea. (note I say idea...not character arc...because there was no character arc with the remotest level of consistency in season 6)

If Moffat had actually bothered to follow through on the concept with any kind of actual respect for the idea, I think it could have been a really fascinating and unique concept to explore. He just handled it...really poorly. Rather like RTD handled Rose, saying she was ~so awesome~ and all this shit without really delving into the reasons why she might be important (first companion after the Time War, etc).

One wasn't even a really well-developed character, because they had no idea the show would still be around, so many years later, when they were first writing and filming it.

As for why I think it undermines the Doctor, it's a physiological bit that hasn't been seen in any of the earlier regenerations; and if it is what accounts for the OTT emo nature of the characters' relations with each other, then...it doesn;t serve the character very well, IMO, because then it just comes across as a bad caricature (as opposed to a good caricature, like Four, though there are fans who would disagree with me).

Well, the reason I think it's fine is because...well, he was never in the same situation as new!Eleven was with Amelia. So it was a new situation, and he had to react to it some way. To compare: I didn't like Ten's regeneration because there was no reason for him to react so differently than his predecessors, but I do think that the way Eleven met Amelia was a sufficiently strong and unique reason to be influenced differently. Most of the Doctors had companions across regenerations to bridge the gap, and Three and Eight didn't really have a strong emotional connection right off the bat with the people he first met.

And I'd argue that Four's regeneration into Five could be seen as a subconscious result of becoming someone more suited to his younger companions. Same with One's regeneration into Two. Actually, all the regenerations have a good bit of subtext that gives strong evidence that the current regeneration's personality, and the circumstances shortly before regeneration influence the next regeneration. So the circumstances shortly after regeneration also being influential is just another interesting idea.

Also, I'd seriously dispute the idea that One wasn't a well-developed character. I think he had one of the best character arcs out of all the incarnations -- he was a lost, suspicious wanderer who didn't understand humans much, and he learned a huge amount from Ian and Barbara and from Susan's interactions with them, and it showed. God, it showed so much. Look at One at the beginning of his run versus the end. That is what I call character development. Sure, that was more accidental, due to the writers trying to soften the character for the audience, but it still made a hell of a lot of sense from an in-universe perspective.

I do agree with what you said about everything being defined by emo-ness, as you call it. It's fucking annoying, for one, and gives off the vibe that nothing is "deep" or "meaningful" unless it's really miserable and painful. Which...fuck that. Just fuck it. It's something that pisses me the fuck off about modern tv in general.

" So the circumstances shortly after regeneration also being influential is just another interesting idea."

That is an interesting idea...now I'm wondering if any of the books or the audios dealt with it.

" Look at One at the beginning of his run versus the end. That is what I call character development. Sure, that was more accidental, due to the writers trying to soften the character for the audience, but it still made a hell of a lot of sense from an in-universe perspective."

I should have clarified that I don't think the characters were well-developed intentionally; I agree with what you say above, but like you said, it was accidental, and just goes to show how much better the writing was back then.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #2185 ]

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