fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2185 ]

[ SECRET POST #2185 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2185 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[not a repeat; was broken yesterday]

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[not a repeat; was broken yesterday]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 034 secrets from Secret Submission Post #312.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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I think it was just a combination of losing his companions in such a heartbreaking way - especially Jamie who remains to this day the definitive bromance companion - as well as being judged by his own people, exacuted, cut off from time travel and stuck on a 'primative' planet. Two had every right to be kicking and screaing at being treated like that especially after he'd just spend the last few episodes trying to save a shit load of people stuck in the War Games.

Three was pretty out of it for a while (can't remember the specific amount of time, maybe a couple of days?) and how the Time Lords just dropped him off on Earth to stumble out and keel over - charming!

With Eleven I'm not sure how to feel. I think his depression is a little more relatable than it was with say Ten after he lost Rose because he seemed to imprint on Amy a lot more, from when she was a child. I think she was the closest replacement to Susan he ever found and to then see her die - remember he hasn't witnessed a long-term companion truley dying since Adric (or arguiably Peri).

The whole "I imprinted on you like a baby duckling" thing is just so OTT and LOLtastic, I just...it seriously undermines the Doctor for me, because I'm just cackling too hard to pay anything else any attention, I'm sorry. (And I'm sorry they ever brought it up in NuWho.)

Not seeing a lot of comparison between Amy and Susan; neither one of "the Ponds" seemed really well-fleshed out, to me, tbh. They kind of stumbled around like cardboard cutouts of companions compared to, say, Ian and Barbara, who TO THIS DAY have shippers, and definitely didn't defer to the Doctor as any kind of authority figure or leader, or whatever it was they were going for in that relationship, I couldn't figure it out. (And then they added the whole River Song explanation, which upped the levels of ridiculousness by several orders of magnitude.)

Don't think we'll see much of Nine, Ten, OR Eleven, in thirty years' time, IMO. in the fandom. tbqh.

I don't mean that Amy and Susan were similar as characters, I just mean I think his relationship with her was probably the most paternal he's been with any of his companions, aided by the fact that he met her when she was seven and had trouble seeing her as anything other than Little Amelia Pond (as seen in Lets Kill Hitler and the God Complex).

And of course no one compares to the legendary Ian and Barbara - whose ship is now canon, bitches! Hell yeah!

The whole "I imprinted on you like a baby duckling" thing is just so OTT and LOLtastic, I just...it seriously undermines the Doctor for me, because I'm just cackling too hard to pay anything else any attention, I'm sorry. (And I'm sorry they ever brought it up in NuWho.)

da

I was okay with it. I felt he was basically saying that he really appreciated Amy because she always had him. Basically her whole life has had the Doctor as a presence, so she's someone who grew up with him as a person of trust and love, even if he didn't know it. It was a new experience for him, because here's a person whose wanted him her whole life. I guess it was the same sort of appeal we saw with Reinette.

....you're seriously bringing Girl in the Fireplace as your defence of the "imprints like a duck" theory? Dude, you're not helping your case at all, LOL.

Uh...I don't think the Doctor meant it literally. And I wasn't supporting it as like a genetic predisposition. I was defending it in a metaphorical sense.

HA HA HA HA LOL LET ME CONDESCEND TO YOU TOO

Would you like some tissues for your superiority jizz, my sweet?

Nah, that's my bad nonny, I didn't realize you thought it was metaphorical; if only! It seemed very much to me like they meant it literally.....probably as a backlash to all the fans who wanted a more "alien" Doctor back. Which explains the emo...but still doesn't justify it IMO.

I don't know, I don't think they ever would have used the word 'imprint' seriously, considered what a bad reputation it has in fiction.

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2012-12-27 03:45 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2012-12-27 03:56 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2012-12-27 04:07 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2012-12-27 04:30 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2012-12-27 04:46 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2012-12-27 05:00 (UTC) - Expand

sa

Ew and I just realized you're comparing kid Amy to the French courtesan. Not ok.

He met Reinette as a child, I hope you realized. And mistress was like a title back then, a place of power and position. She wasn't just a prostitute. Historically, Madame de Pompadour was a very intelligent, bright, charismatic woman.

Actually, the comparison goes deeper: he met her as a child who grew up with him as an imaginary character, then met her again later as a beautiful older woman who had the hots for him.

ayrt

Yeah, like I said, that was my bad, I wasn't getting the comparison; tbf I did try to block much of Girl in the Fireplace out of my mind, LOL. I can see where the comparisons are, but honestly, since I personally didn't like the concept in either series, it's not doing much for convincing me that's why Eleven is Emo Elmo, tbqh.

Neither am I a big fan of "Teh Doktar is TEH SECKSS!!!" mentality of NuWho, either. I much preferred it when it was a gen show that was (almost) OK for all ages. But that's just my own thing.

Nah, you're right that Amy was treated really badly by the plot and got really shafted in the character development department from an out-of-universe perspective. But from an in-universe perspective? Er...yes, she was really really important to that particular incarnation of the Doctor and his relationship with her was a lot like how he viewed Susan.

I note that you mention Susan and then suddenly jump to discussing Ian and Barbara. Uhhh...Susan's not Ian or Barbara. Susan was also a rather poorly-developed character, but do you honestly think that because she was poorly developed and not remotely the most awesome companion from our perspective, the Doctor didn't care for her? He probably cared for her more than he ever cared for any other companion ever, for logical, in-universe reasons. That's just what IS, it has nothing to do with her character development.

Also, I'm curious as to why it "undermines the Doctor". Because some random human had a massive impact on him? I mean, the circumstances kinda warrant it: he was regenerating, and he was regenerating alone, and she was the first person he saw in his new form and the first thing he ever did was help her, before his personality was even fully formed. What makes imprinting like that so impossible? It's a really interesting and logical idea. (note I say idea...not character arc...because there was no character arc with the remotest level of consistency in season 6)

If Moffat had actually bothered to follow through on the concept with any kind of actual respect for the idea, I think it could have been a really fascinating and unique concept to explore. He just handled it...really poorly. Rather like RTD handled Rose, saying she was ~so awesome~ and all this shit without really delving into the reasons why she might be important (first companion after the Time War, etc).

One wasn't even a really well-developed character, because they had no idea the show would still be around, so many years later, when they were first writing and filming it.

As for why I think it undermines the Doctor, it's a physiological bit that hasn't been seen in any of the earlier regenerations; and if it is what accounts for the OTT emo nature of the characters' relations with each other, then...it doesn;t serve the character very well, IMO, because then it just comes across as a bad caricature (as opposed to a good caricature, like Four, though there are fans who would disagree with me).

Well, the reason I think it's fine is because...well, he was never in the same situation as new!Eleven was with Amelia. So it was a new situation, and he had to react to it some way. To compare: I didn't like Ten's regeneration because there was no reason for him to react so differently than his predecessors, but I do think that the way Eleven met Amelia was a sufficiently strong and unique reason to be influenced differently. Most of the Doctors had companions across regenerations to bridge the gap, and Three and Eight didn't really have a strong emotional connection right off the bat with the people he first met.

And I'd argue that Four's regeneration into Five could be seen as a subconscious result of becoming someone more suited to his younger companions. Same with One's regeneration into Two. Actually, all the regenerations have a good bit of subtext that gives strong evidence that the current regeneration's personality, and the circumstances shortly before regeneration influence the next regeneration. So the circumstances shortly after regeneration also being influential is just another interesting idea.

Also, I'd seriously dispute the idea that One wasn't a well-developed character. I think he had one of the best character arcs out of all the incarnations -- he was a lost, suspicious wanderer who didn't understand humans much, and he learned a huge amount from Ian and Barbara and from Susan's interactions with them, and it showed. God, it showed so much. Look at One at the beginning of his run versus the end. That is what I call character development. Sure, that was more accidental, due to the writers trying to soften the character for the audience, but it still made a hell of a lot of sense from an in-universe perspective.

I do agree with what you said about everything being defined by emo-ness, as you call it. It's fucking annoying, for one, and gives off the vibe that nothing is "deep" or "meaningful" unless it's really miserable and painful. Which...fuck that. Just fuck it. It's something that pisses me the fuck off about modern tv in general.

" So the circumstances shortly after regeneration also being influential is just another interesting idea."

That is an interesting idea...now I'm wondering if any of the books or the audios dealt with it.

" Look at One at the beginning of his run versus the end. That is what I call character development. Sure, that was more accidental, due to the writers trying to soften the character for the audience, but it still made a hell of a lot of sense from an in-universe perspective."

I should have clarified that I don't think the characters were well-developed intentionally; I agree with what you say above, but like you said, it was accidental, and just goes to show how much better the writing was back then.

With Eleven I'm not sure how to feel. I think his depression is a little more relatable than it was with say Ten after he lost Rose because he seemed to imprint on Amy a lot more, from when she was a child. I think she was the closest replacement to Susan he ever found and to then see her die

That's exactly how I feel. I've seen episodes of every single Doctor with every single companion, and I'm still boggling at how Eleven's going to live without the Ponds, especially Amy, seeing as pretty much his entire existence and identity is constructed around his relationship with her. (Even in a literal sense, re: The Big Bang.)

HOWEVER, one of the things I liked about Eleven, (even though it probably makes me sound like a douchebag to say it) is that he was the king of Stepford Smilers. Even if he was screaming inside he'd pretend to be happy and nutty and wear dumb hats and make lame jokes and ball it all up and squash it down to let it fester quietly as a mental illness (in the words of Turanga Leela of Futurama). So that way, I didn't have to sit through scenes of him angsting therapeutically about his problems.

Yes, I know, I'm a horrible person.

Eleven still angsted all over the place though!

" his entire existence and identity is constructed around his relationship with her"

See, this is the part that drives me absolutely bonkers. It is a complete role reversal of what the Doctor is, it undermines everything the show is about (strange slightly-batty alien has thrilling adventures with a constantly-changing cast of characters across time and space), and it is one of the many soap opera elements they've brought in that does real disservice to the show, for me, at least, because I just can't watch that rubbish.

And I kinda find that unique and interesting and not at all implausible or inconsistent. Mind you, I wouldn't want it again in the next regeneration -- if they do it once, it's a fascinating concept to explore.

Now, if they keep doing it and treat it as normal and expected, instead of a unique one-off circumstantial idea for this one particular regeneration, (compare it to, say, the uniqueness of Three being stuck on Earth almost his entire run, or Four traveling with another Time Lord instead of with a human or a human-like alien) then that would be idiotic and soap-opera-ish and not really what the Doctor's about. What the Doctor's really about is change - every companion relationship is different. Every regeneration is different. Every set of particular circumstances they face is different. If they try to make it normal and "this is how it should always go and it should never be different" THAT does a disservice to the show.

But if it was this one time, this one incarnation, with this one girl and with this one particularly unique reason and set of circumstances...I don't see how it flies in the face of "everything the show is about". It doesn't make the Doctor non-batty, or non-alien, or not have thrilling adventures across time and space, or unable to change his cast properly if they bother to write a proper exit. It just leaves open some interesting paths to explore regarding his characterization and the nature of his relationship with his companions.

I honestly hope I don't sound presumptuous, but it does seem like you're making it into a way bigger deal than it actually is. It doesn't change who he is. It's simply "I'm not exactly sure what my personality is like without you, because you were right there when it was forming". That's...kind of an interesting concept that makes sense and is a clever way to play with the idea of regeneration. And it could be pretty cool to see him deal with adapting to a new companion given those circumstances. Or it would be, if Moffat knew how to, you know, write.

ayrt

it would be, if Moffat knew how to, you know, write.

Which pretty much sums up the reason for my inability to watch the show. :-)

Just a drive-by anon loling at how much Moffat hate there is on f!s. I mean, it's not like he's won the most prestigious award in SF several times in a row, right?

Oh, he has his good points. I loved his episodes in the RTD era and I loved season 5 and I loved the episodes he wrote in season 5.

But season 6 and 7 tipped the scale over to hatred for me. And his episodes in season 6 and 7 were the most horrible and stupid and OOC of them all. He hasn't written any episodes that didn't make me wrinkle my nose in disgust at least three or four times since A Christmas Carol. Either he's gone past his prime, or he's just one of those writers who only writes well when he's on a short leash.

It's simply "I'm not exactly sure what my personality is like without you, because you were right there when it was forming".

I've been hating on the r'ship between Amy and 11 with the best of them, but the way you've presented it here makes it fascinating rather than icky. However it also makes me consider parallels between *shudder* those two and 10 and Rose. I personally hated the way that relationship was written (not hating Rose, just feeling that the r'ship was OTT and unnecessary verging on uncomfortable esp for those around the,), but I would be fascinated on your thoughts about the topic if you're willing to dive into that lake again...

Er...by "r'ship" do you mean romantically shipping Amy and Eleven? Because that kind of makes my skin crawl. I lovelovelove their friendship despite all the irritating dicking around in season 6, but never ever ever as a romance. Ever.

Uh...the parallels between 11 and Amy and 10 and Rose...I guess there's the whole "first person you were exposed to after regenerating" similarity, but not exactly, since 10 already knew Rose as 9. In fact, the 9->10 regeneration is as different from the 10->11 regeneration as possible. 10 came about in Rose's presence, surrounded by the exact same cast of characters and setting he had gotten used to when he was 9, whereas 11 came about totally lost, no companion, no one with him, no clue where or when he was, having just said goodbye to all his old friends. I think the companion influence is the opposite way around for 10 than it was for 11 -- 9's exposure to Rose and her influence on him kind of guided his character development in a way that led to him regenerating into 10 -- all passionate and idealistic and youthful and exuberant. A little bit Rose-ish. Obviously I'm not saying it was ALL ABOUT ROSE, that'd be ridiculous, but I think part of it was. After all, Rose was kind of a big part of 9's life. I think 9+Rose/11+Amy is a better comparison than 10+Rose/11+Amy, tbh.

I honestly don't think 10+Rose and 11+Amy had many similarities, really. The parts of their situations that were similar tend to produce more contrasts than anything. I think 10 saw Rose as more his equal than she really was, or wished she was his equal, or something, which I think was what allowed them to slide into the pseudo-romantic and kind of codependent relationship they had in the latter half of season 2. Whereas 11 always seemed to view Amy as even less his equal than she really was. Not in a bad way -- in the way that he always seemed to see her as 7 year old Amelia, like a daughter or granddaughter that he sort of speed-adopted by accident/necessity during The Eleventh Hour without really realizing what he was doing.

Romantic r'ship? Urgh, no, definitely not! Particularly not with Rory for the most part right there, which is my pet hate and probably set me against Rose early on.

Yes, you make a very good point about the differences in their regenerative surroundings, and one which I should have considered before posting. While I find the idea fascinating, I'm not sure I necessarily agree about Rose's influence on Ten, but only because I can't see any evidence of that in previous regenerations that might lead to him having done it for his ninth regeneration. I prefer the theory that he had his attitudes fixed by Rose's reactions to him, stuck with them with Martha until he realised (too late) that they were inappropriate, and changed his manner with Astrid and then with Donna.

I am more inclined to agree with your views on equality. It's interesting that this is an idea that belongs purely to the new series as there was always a gap between Doctor and companion(s) in the old, and I think is something that began to evolve during the second half of Nine's era and has now blossomed in Ten and Eleven's. I think 11 would have viewed Amy as his equal had River not been around to fill that place. It will be interesting to see where the relationship goes with the new companion.

Re: ayrt

intrigueing - 2012-12-27 17:38 (UTC) - Expand

HOWEVER, one of the things I liked about Eleven, (even though it probably makes me sound like a douchebag to say it) is that he was the king of Stepford Smilers. Even if he was screaming inside he'd pretend to be happy and nutty and wear dumb hats and make lame jokes and ball it all up and squash it down to let it fester quietly as a mental illness (in the words of Turanga Leela of Futurama). So that way, I didn't have to sit through scenes of him angsting therapeutically about his problems.

Yes. That's what made him fantastic for me. Not because I didn't want to sit through scenes of angsting but just because it was so subtle and real. I'm sure we've all had to put on our best face for others at one point or another. And it's just so heartbreaking because you know without it having to be explained to you.

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