Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2012-12-26 06:34 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2012-12-26 06:34 pm
[ SECRET POST #2185 ]
⌈ Secret Post #2185 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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[not a repeat; was broken yesterday]
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[not a repeat; was broken yesterday]
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 034 secrets from Secret Submission Post #312.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: ayrt
That's exactly how I feel. I've seen episodes of every single Doctor with every single companion, and I'm still boggling at how Eleven's going to live without the Ponds, especially Amy, seeing as pretty much his entire existence and identity is constructed around his relationship with her. (Even in a literal sense, re: The Big Bang.)
HOWEVER, one of the things I liked about Eleven, (even though it probably makes me sound like a douchebag to say it) is that he was the king of Stepford Smilers. Even if he was screaming inside he'd pretend to be happy and nutty and wear dumb hats and make lame jokes and ball it all up and squash it down to let it fester quietly as a mental illness (in the words of Turanga Leela of Futurama). So that way, I didn't have to sit through scenes of him angsting therapeutically about his problems.
Yes, I know, I'm a horrible person.
Re: ayrt
(Anonymous) 2012-12-27 04:04 am (UTC)(link)" his entire existence and identity is constructed around his relationship with her"
See, this is the part that drives me absolutely bonkers. It is a complete role reversal of what the Doctor is, it undermines everything the show is about (strange slightly-batty alien has thrilling adventures with a constantly-changing cast of characters across time and space), and it is one of the many soap opera elements they've brought in that does real disservice to the show, for me, at least, because I just can't watch that rubbish.
Re: ayrt
Now, if they keep doing it and treat it as normal and expected, instead of a unique one-off circumstantial idea for this one particular regeneration, (compare it to, say, the uniqueness of Three being stuck on Earth almost his entire run, or Four traveling with another Time Lord instead of with a human or a human-like alien) then that would be idiotic and soap-opera-ish and not really what the Doctor's about. What the Doctor's really about is change - every companion relationship is different. Every regeneration is different. Every set of particular circumstances they face is different. If they try to make it normal and "this is how it should always go and it should never be different" THAT does a disservice to the show.
But if it was this one time, this one incarnation, with this one girl and with this one particularly unique reason and set of circumstances...I don't see how it flies in the face of "everything the show is about". It doesn't make the Doctor non-batty, or non-alien, or not have thrilling adventures across time and space, or unable to change his cast properly if they bother to write a proper exit. It just leaves open some interesting paths to explore regarding his characterization and the nature of his relationship with his companions.
I honestly hope I don't sound presumptuous, but it does seem like you're making it into a way bigger deal than it actually is. It doesn't change who he is. It's simply "I'm not exactly sure what my personality is like without you, because you were right there when it was forming". That's...kind of an interesting concept that makes sense and is a clever way to play with the idea of regeneration. And it could be pretty cool to see him deal with adapting to a new companion given those circumstances. Or it would be, if Moffat knew how to, you know, write.
Re: ayrt
(Anonymous) 2012-12-27 04:36 am (UTC)(link)it would be, if Moffat knew how to, you know, write.
Which pretty much sums up the reason for my inability to watch the show. :-)
Re: ayrt
(Anonymous) 2012-12-27 05:27 am (UTC)(link)Re: ayrt
But season 6 and 7 tipped the scale over to hatred for me. And his episodes in season 6 and 7 were the most horrible and stupid and OOC of them all. He hasn't written any episodes that didn't make me wrinkle my nose in disgust at least three or four times since A Christmas Carol. Either he's gone past his prime, or he's just one of those writers who only writes well when he's on a short leash.
Re: ayrt
I've been hating on the r'ship between Amy and 11 with the best of them, but the way you've presented it here makes it fascinating rather than icky. However it also makes me consider parallels between *shudder* those two and 10 and Rose. I personally hated the way that relationship was written (not hating Rose, just feeling that the r'ship was OTT and unnecessary verging on uncomfortable esp for those around the,), but I would be fascinated on your thoughts about the topic if you're willing to dive into that lake again...
Re: ayrt
Uh...the parallels between 11 and Amy and 10 and Rose...I guess there's the whole "first person you were exposed to after regenerating" similarity, but not exactly, since 10 already knew Rose as 9. In fact, the 9->10 regeneration is as different from the 10->11 regeneration as possible. 10 came about in Rose's presence, surrounded by the exact same cast of characters and setting he had gotten used to when he was 9, whereas 11 came about totally lost, no companion, no one with him, no clue where or when he was, having just said goodbye to all his old friends. I think the companion influence is the opposite way around for 10 than it was for 11 -- 9's exposure to Rose and her influence on him kind of guided his character development in a way that led to him regenerating into 10 -- all passionate and idealistic and youthful and exuberant. A little bit Rose-ish. Obviously I'm not saying it was ALL ABOUT ROSE, that'd be ridiculous, but I think part of it was. After all, Rose was kind of a big part of 9's life. I think 9+Rose/11+Amy is a better comparison than 10+Rose/11+Amy, tbh.
I honestly don't think 10+Rose and 11+Amy had many similarities, really. The parts of their situations that were similar tend to produce more contrasts than anything. I think 10 saw Rose as more his equal than she really was, or wished she was his equal, or something, which I think was what allowed them to slide into the pseudo-romantic and kind of codependent relationship they had in the latter half of season 2. Whereas 11 always seemed to view Amy as even less his equal than she really was. Not in a bad way -- in the way that he always seemed to see her as 7 year old Amelia, like a daughter or granddaughter that he sort of speed-adopted by accident/necessity during The Eleventh Hour without really realizing what he was doing.
Re: ayrt
Yes, you make a very good point about the differences in their regenerative surroundings, and one which I should have considered before posting. While I find the idea fascinating, I'm not sure I necessarily agree about Rose's influence on Ten, but only because I can't see any evidence of that in previous regenerations that might lead to him having done it for his ninth regeneration. I prefer the theory that he had his attitudes fixed by Rose's reactions to him, stuck with them with Martha until he realised (too late) that they were inappropriate, and changed his manner with Astrid and then with Donna.
I am more inclined to agree with your views on equality. It's interesting that this is an idea that belongs purely to the new series as there was always a gap between Doctor and companion(s) in the old, and I think is something that began to evolve during the second half of Nine's era and has now blossomed in Ten and Eleven's. I think 11 would have viewed Amy as his equal had River not been around to fill that place. It will be interesting to see where the relationship goes with the new companion.
Re: ayrt
For example: One started out very distant and grumpy and patronizing towards humans, and eventually warmed up to them due to first Ian and Barbara's influence, then his later companions' influence and became much nicer, and then when he regenerated into Two, he was very close to his companions and emotionally open and vulnerable with them. And it's possible to view Five's regeneration into Six as a result of just having a really awful life in general with shittons of people dying in most of his serials and companions running away and dying on him and making him worry and get sad all the time, so his next regeneration was a far more abrasive and insensitive person in reaction to all that.
So I don't think it's a leap to say his companions also have some influence on his characterization is unsupported by previous regenerations. And Nine would be a special case -- Rose was his first companion after the Time War, which was a pretty cataclysmic event, and she kinda did a lot to help him start getting over it (re: Dalek). So I can she her having more of an influence on him than usual. I don't think it was conscious or anything, or that his companions were the only influence on his characterization, but I think they did shape him a bit.
I'm a little confused as to what you mean about Ten's attitudes though, because he seemed to always treat Martha rather differently than Rose?
Re: ayrt
Yes. That's what made him fantastic for me. Not because I didn't want to sit through scenes of angsting but just because it was so subtle and real. I'm sure we've all had to put on our best face for others at one point or another. And it's just so heartbreaking because you know without it having to be explained to you.