Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2013-01-26 03:17 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2013-01-26 03:17 pm
[ SECRET POST #2216 ]
⌈ Secret Post #2216 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 120 secrets from Secret Submission Post #317.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - personal attack ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-01-27 06:31 am (UTC)(link)1. Ariel is the youngest of seventh daughters, and her inheriting the throne is never A Thing That Will Happen in the movies. Now, it's possible that the inheritance hierarchy of Merfolk is different from the hierarchy of human beings, but as that's never made into a plot point, it doesn't matter, and we can assume that Ariel is seventh in line for the throne. Merida is the heir.
2. One of the first scenes of older!Merida that we see is her mother trying to teach her how to be Queen with Merida being a brat in response, such as mocking her mother, complaining every time, not paying attention, etc.
3. When Ariel realizes she forgot to go to the concert, she freaks out, and goes there in a hurry. However, it should be pointed out that this concert is just a concert, and has no social/political ramifications, unlike what Merida did.
4. When Ariel disobeys her father, it's because she is interested in a culture that is foreign to her, and she wants to learn everything about it. Merida... Wants to ride her horsey and shoot a bow and arrow and ignore all of her responsibilities as the eldest daughter to the king. If her brother's weren't identical, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it, but they are, meaning tha the line of succession can get really complicated really quickly if they can't tell which brother is oldest.
5. When Merida first get's the magic potion, she's not really concerned about what it will do to her family as long as it will change her fate; when Ariel is hearing the details about becoming human, she actually does wonder about her family, but Ursula railroads her into signing the contract anyway, that's kind of Ursula's thing.
6. When Merida gives Elinor the tart, and Elinor starts getting sick, Merida's only thought is to ask if she's changed her mind about the marriage yet, there's absolutely no concern about whether or not her mother is okay. When Ursula has Ariel and is confronting Triton, Ariel begs her dad not to go through with trading places, and when he does, she starts crying, and apologizing, and she's remorseful.
So no. You do not get to judge people who think Merida is a brat and Ariel isn't because seriously, they aren't in even the same circumstances at all.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-01-27 08:15 am (UTC)(link)no subject
1. You're right here, Merida is the heir. But you could argue that, just like Ariel did not choose to be born last, Merida did not choose to be the only heir. Also, she has three male brothers, and, while they are younger than she is, technically it would make more sense at the time to wait for them to be of age and inherit the 'crown' (or whatever it would be in this context). It felt to me that Merida was being pressured into this quite a lot by her mother for no reason.
2. If Ariel had a mother like Queen Eleanor, who'd teach her to be a 'good mermaid/lady' every day, she'd be acting just like Merida. Ariel, however, doesn't have a mother and dads usually don't care if their daughters are not acting like 'proper ladies'. Unfortunately I have a mother who is just like queen Eleanor and she's been telling me to 'act like a lady/proper woman' my whole life and, believe me, it's incredibly annoying. If you had someone who constantly told you what to do, what not to do, what is proper and what is improper in your life, you'd probably be acting exactly like Merida.
3. As you said, the concert was just a concert, it hardly had any impact on Ariel's situation as a whole. I think Merida had some rights to do what she did, seeing as she was possibly going to have to marry a complete stranger, which she didn't want and it would have clearly impacted her life. Again, I doubt that anyone would have acted differently if something similar was happening to them.
4. I think what Merida wants is to be free to be herself and accomplish her own goals in life. Ariel is interested in a foreign culture, which is true and amazing, but at the end of the day, she really decides to become human, makes the pact with Ursula, disobeys her father and puts the whole kingdom/underwater world in danger because she saw a guy on a ship and decided it must be true love. Now, I absolutely love The Little Mermaid and its story, don't get me wrong, but this is basically what happens. She has no certainties that he loves her (he does fall in love with her voice, but she has no means of knowing this), she sees him once and she knows nothing about the guy, nothing that could make her fall in love with him besides his appearance. However, I will be the first to agree that it was love at first sight, that it was romantic and that, when she did turn human, they got to know each other and the crush she had on him turned into true love. But the fact remains that Ariel did all that she did because, at the time, she had a mere crush on a pretty guy. And, while I'm not sure what Merida really wants from life or what her goals are (the movie doesn't make it clear), I'm sure riding around on her horse and shooting arrows are metaphors for her wanting freedom of being herself and making her own choices. And I'm sure everybody wants that from life.
5. Ariel wonders whether she'd be able to see her family again if she had legs, she doesn't wonder about their health or what would happen to them or the kingdom as a whole if she signed a contract with Ursula, the witch of the sea, whom everyone knows not to get involved with. She doesn't wonder what kind of impact the contract will have on anyone dear to her, she doesn't even read it (and we later find out that it was in the contract that she would belong to Ursula if she failed. Ursula put this in the contract with Triton in mind and knew he would give up his powers and his Trident for his beloved daughter). Ariel wonders about her family on a 'selfish' level, if you will (that is, if she will be able to see them), but doesn't think one bit about the possible consequences of her actions. And, while I agree that Merida is not really concerned about her mother either if she gives her the cake, Ariel is not exactly concerned about her family or her kingdom either - she only wants to be with Eric.
6. I agree on this point and I think it's a flaw of the movie. Merida should have cared a bit more about her mother's health and Ariel really felt regret when Triton traded places with her.
Again, I did not write this comment to start a war, I'm just letting you see that your points can be rebutted. I love both Ariel and Merida to death, along with their movies. Both movies and characters have their little flaws, but overall it seems kind of weird to me to love Ariel and hate Merida. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, you're free to hate and love any character you want, I'm just giving my own opinion on this.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-01-27 05:24 pm (UTC)(link)1. Yes, the triplets are technically the male heirs, however, having identical male triplets complicates the matter of who is going to inherit; if they try and give all three of them the crown, there's the matter of who takes charge of what, which triplet's child inherits, which triplet is which, etc. If they were only twins, or if they weren't identical, this wouldn't be as much of an issue, because there'd be less likely for there to be a chance of a potential three-way split. It's easier for everyone, and it would cause a lot less trouble down the line for Merida to be the heir, as there is only one of her.
2. That's true, but the fact remains that Elinor isn't just telling Merida this for fun; she's telling Merida this because Merida is the heir to the throne, and some of the stuff that Merida does that "isn't ladylike" is also just not good politics. Like, putting your weaponry on the table could be seen as a threat. Other things like learning the history of the land are important, and etiquette, these are all things that are genuinely important for Merida to know as the heir to the throne. She has a responsibility to know these things. It's different nowadays, unless you're a part of royalty. (Also, I'm pretty sure that Elinor says that "A Princess does not" which is different from "A lady does not", at least to me. When you're a princess, you have responsibilities that comes with your privileges, such as the responsibility to learn about your kingdom, to learn how to not insult someone so badly they start a war, to learn how to respect those who work for you, because they are the backbone of the land*. *Not historically, mind you, but the way that Elinor treats Maudie, and the way that Merida+the triplet's treat Maudie is way different, and let's be real; Maudie doesn't actually deserve to be treated badly.)
3. The thing is, Merida's way of doing things isn't what works, in the end. All it does is potentially start a war, and embarrass all the other chiefs in front of their warriors. You can argue that she did it so she wouldn't have to marry anyone, but she also could have tried other things that wouldn't have caused escalated conflict- like at the end. Someone commented elsewhere that, if Merida hadn't blown off her mother's other attempts to teach her what it means to be a princess, then when Merida came to her mother to tell her that she didn't want to be married, it might not have been seen as "just Merida being a brat" again, but the Queen might have instead taken her seriously, and managed to smooth things over. In the end, what Merida did was pointless, because while it was pretty, it wasn't what stopped her from being engaged, all it did was cause a fight that could have easily turned into war.
4. The thing is, though, the fact that Merida could run off and do those things whenever she wanted is a part of the rights she has as a princess; the non-royalty wouldn't have had time to do that, they'd be too busy running around, and working, but in return, Merida doesn't even want to take the time to learn. I'm not saying that she had to get married, but the fact remains that all the movie shows her wanting to do was run around on her horse, shoot her bow and arrows, and Have Adventure. She wanted all the rights of being a princess, and non of the responsibility (save getting married, but she had other responsibilities beyond that that she ignored because she didn't feel like it.) I mean, if a kid today wants to run around and do whatever the hell they want, they can't, because they still have to go to school, and it's technically the parent's responsibility that they do so; it's the same here, but Elinor cut out the middle-man.
5. I'd argue that "being with her father and sisters again" isn't exactly selfish; if she's with them, she'll know their health, the status of the kingdom, etc. Also, watch that scene again, Ariel doesn't want to sign the contract, but Ursula keeps going after her, and manipulates her into doing so. It's Ursula who keeps interrupting Ariel when she tries to ask a question, Ursula who gets in Ariel's space to intimidate her, Ursula who shows her images, and tells her what will happen, but refuses to give Ariel the time to think about what she's doing. Compare Ursula (who railroads Ariel into signing the contract) and the witch from Brave, who tries to convince Merida not to do it. Also, there's the fact that Merida had time to realize that what she was doing wasn't good, and to change her mind, but she didn't, even though she didn't actually know what would happen.
I wouldn't say that I hated Merida, not exactly, but she'll never be my favorite, and that movie will never be in my top ten movies, and I just tend to avoid her because I sympathize a lot more with Elinor.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-01-28 08:35 am (UTC)(link)Watching someone you love unmistakably suffer right in front of you, and asking how it might benefit you instead of expressing any concern? Not really an apt comparison.
no subject
I could never hate Merida, for the simple fact that I relate to her too much. But thanks for the awesome discussion, though! It was great. :)