[ SECRET POST #2223 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2223 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 06 pages, 127 secrets from Secret Submission Post #318.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[tenlittlebullets]

In-universe I think it's pretty in-character for both of them, because by that point it's been well-established that Ten hates himself. It makes sense for him to be a total dick to himself (and especially to justify it by positioning clone!Ten as the 'self' he hates most--the one fresh out of the Time War), and it might even be in-character for clone!Ten to stand there and take it.

Out-of-universe, yeah, there's a lot of dehumanization going on there.

[(Anonymous)]

You always have such insightful observations about Doctor Who. Especially with Ten, it seems like the fandom is divided into "OMG HE'S SUCH AN ADMIRABLE WONDERFUL SWEET WOOBIE" and "FUCKING FUCK HE'S AN AWFULLY-WRITTEN CHARACTER AND IS ACTUALLY A HORRIBLE ASSHOLE" and I think both of those opinions are wildly inaccurate.

/drive-by creeper anon love

[tenlittlebullets]

Ooooh, I have a creeper anon? YAY. I'm f!s famous!

Oh man, Ten. The problem is that he's a wonderful sweet woobie and a horrible asshole with more issues than the entire back catalog of Doctor Who Magazine, and the writers are only intermittently aware of how to handle this. Sometimes he is admirable; sometimes you kinda suspect the writers think he is when he really really isn't, in which case he's an awfully-written character and a horrible asshole; and sometimes they're so bang-on-the-nose about how and why he's fucked-up that you really enjoy seeing him get put through the wringer, because you get to feel properly bad for him instead of rolling your eyes and flicking popcorn at his stupid angsty face.

...or, in the case of Journey's End, rolling your eyes and throwing knives at his stupid angsty face.

[(Anonymous)]

sometimes you kinda suspect the writers think he is when he really really isn't, in which case he's an awfully-written character

Can you give some examples? I think I give the writers way too much benefit of the doubt which leads me to not really understand other fans' issues with the writing, so I'd really like to hear which things bothered people!

[tenlittlebullets]

The Sontaran two-parter and The Doctor's Daughter stand out to me as examples of how not to write Ten. He's throwing shitfits at the merest mention of guns or violence, and being unnecessarily vicious to people who don't deserve it--even to his friends--when he really has no grounds to condemn anyone. And it's impossible to tell whether the writers actually think his prissy knee-jerk pacifism occupies the moral high ground, or whether they're aware of how over-the-top it would be even without the generous helpings of hypocrisy.

The shape of the episodes, which end up being all about how the Doctor was a selfless suffering hero who was right all along, would seem to indicate that the writers don't get it. But then you get to lines like "Look up genocide in the dictionary, you'll find a picture of me next to it--with the caption 'Over my dead body'" that would take implausible amounts of gall and/or cluelessness to write with a straight face.

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

I think the hypocrisy in The Doctor's Daughter was intentional, there was that moment when Jenny asked him about the war and said "then how am I different from you?" and he had no answer.

HOWEVER, thinking back on it, the reactions Donna and Jenny had to that hypocrisy were way too *mild*. It was as if he had offhandedly said something a bit hypocritical without really paying attention to what he was saying and they were just pointing it out for him. And it was really not just some little offhanded bit of hypocrisy. More like "wow, this guy is up to his eyeballs in denial". So I think there, the writers were really oblivious to the *severity* of how fucked-up his hypocrisy was, even though they were acknowledging the existence of the hypocrisy.

And that "a man who never would" scene at the end. That scene seemed to be framed as some kind of awesome righteous moment, but it kind of swept all Ten's inner struggles from throughout the episode under the rug.

I can't remember all the specific details of the Sontaran two-parter so I don't recall if UNIT got a moment of vindication or not, but Martha had that "I'm trying to make them better!" line, which seemed to be a pretty straight endorsement of Ten's opinions, even if they were aware he was a little OTT about expressing them. And you're right, I don't think Ten ever went "whoops sorry" or anything for being so up in his ass about guns. And after all that, he goes onto the Sontaran ship with the functional equivalent of a bomb, and seriously? That's okay but guns aren't? And I don't remember him or anyone else mentioning that disconnect either.

I guess I just kinda assumed the dissonance was intentional, but a more casual viewer probably wouldn't have any reason to think it was intentional because nothing I remember in the episodes really gave off that message, so that's not really good writing.

[riddian]

This was pretty much my thought process. I was so bothered by Ten's treatment of Rose and Tentoo until I realized that it actually would be pretty in-character of him to want to stuff this other version of him, who just blew up all the daleks and reminded him of the Time War, into another dimension and leave him there forever. And what with his commitment issues, how he couldn't even tell Rose he loved her... it made a lot of sense for Ten to do what he did.

So in conclusion, I'm still bothered by it, but now it's because it makes Ten's character flaws stand out glaringly for me. Ten, you're so cute, y u gotta be a dick like that.

[tenlittlebullets]

So in conclusion, I'm still bothered by it, but now it's because it makes Ten's character flaws stand out glaringly for me.

OTOH, that's par for the course in s4 and the specials. *g* But yeah. Commitment issues? Check. Obsession with how forever-alone he is? Check. Always knows what's best for everyone else, whether or not they agree? Check. Massive internalized self-loathing using the Time War as an excuse? Check. Raging hypocrisy re: how he judges violence? CHECK.

("Rose, he blew up all the Daleks, you have to fix him and his genocidal ways!" Um, Doctor? Rose blew up all the Daleks and you snogged her.)

[riddian]

Eyup.

Ohgod I was SO bothered by the "You have to fix him now!" Partly because I didn't think he needed much "fixing," mostly because you can't make somebody else change! Or order somebody to make somebody else change. People don't work like that. Especially if they're standing right there while you tell other people about how baaaad and broken they obviously are.

[intrigueing]

Yeah, that's what I thought, it was a projection of self-loathing facilitated by actual different consciousnesses and bodies, sort of the inverse of the Dream Lord.

[tenlittlebullets]

Yup. Ten is self-righteous enough to maintain a thin layer of denial between himself and his self-loathing, but a copy of himself? Doing something he can just barely convince himself he wouldn't have done in that situation? Let the condemnation party begin!

[(Anonymous)]

but a copy of himself?

Oh my god, I'm an absolute moron but it took me until right this second to realize that the way Eleven treated Ganger!Eleven is nothing like how Ten treated Tentoo and that makes so much sense from a character development standpoint. Kind and accepting but oh-so-indifferently-cavalier with both their lives? The writers of Who have some deceptively sly insight mixed into their morass of wallbangingly stupid ideas.

And now this thread has got my brain going and I'm also reminded of what a utterly disgusted infuriated shitfit Seven pitched at Captain Cook and his treatment of Mags in The Greatest Show In The Galaxy. Not as literal a copy but still...