fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #244 ]

7. I think people want BNF status for popularity, not to have amazing writing/drawing skills.

8. That picture is AMAZING. But american PC/Mac are hotter.

9. Welcome to episode 13 o/
Also, the show isn't about the three of them, it's about Simon's journey to becoming a spacerapist. It says this in the VERY FIRST EPISODE /o/ Not that Kamina's death wasn't horrible and startling and thus completely amazing, but. It's not like they lied to you.

10. All I can do is look at that image and think "That is the most photoshopped flesh ever" =\

18. Oh. Oh my god. J-Japan \o/

28. .......no. no it's not. I was totally with you until you had to say that it's harder because you're working with someone else's characters, as if them being YOUR OWN characters means everything is comparatively clear cut and undebatable. Don't misunderstand, I roleplay my ass off and I have a great deal of appreciation for thinking through character's actions, coming to understand them, figuring out plot, angsting about using other people's characters, wanting to do justice to something you love, wanting others to appreciate it. Certainly good fanfiction is not the work of a moron. But. Creating your own world? Interesting, unique characters? Plot? Timeline? Tying it all together, making it interesting, having the sheer fucking will to sit alone in your room and create something original that no one else in the universe gives a flying fuck about except maybe your mom or best friend? Because everyone and their brother is a 'writing a book'? The terror of putting out there something that is entirely yours and after possibly years of work is also a large part of your soul? Creating 'original' work isn't as simple as grabbing whatever the hell is sitting in your fridge and tossing it together and calling it artwork. Good story, good character, good setting, directing, writing, dialog, world, the sort of stuff that you will one day read and fantasize about and love and want to write good, honorable, beautiful fanfiction for is vastly more work than even a well thought out and well written fanfiction epic.

36. In J-fen's defense, their wtf-scribbles tend to have a lot of. God, I don't even know the word. Movement? Scene. Place. Story. Emotion? Not to say that english-fen doesn't/can't, I personally don't explore much beyond whatever 4chan threads I'm linked to. But the fact that the lines are ugly doesn't mean the art is worthless, I love a lot of wonderful mouseart that evokes. Something. When I think of american oekaki's... okay I don't SEE many american oekaki's, but when I think of sketchy american drawning it's usually character study? But it seems flatter for some reason *shrug* Not to say all jfen art is amazing and all eng-fen isn't, but stereotypes DO exist for a reason. At the same time, it's not like I bother to check that art is done by someone who's japanese before I save it =\

I think your problem is that you admit you haven't seen many english-language fanartists. Just like everyone else who makes such rude generalizations. Sure, there are some that post in comms, but a lot of those artists are terrible. They're whoring their art around because they can't get hits otherwise.

There are AMAZING artists out there. And I don't know why people would rather see

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I think your problem is that you admit you haven't seen many english-language fanartists. Just like everyone else who makes such rude generalizations. Sure, there are some that post in comms, but a lot of those artists are terrible. They're whoring their art around because they can't get hits otherwise.

There are AMAZING artists out there. And I don't know why people would rather see <a href="http://i10.tinypic.com/4yupvuu.jpg"crap like this</a> than <a href="http://fevereon.deviantart.com/art/Sephiroth-complete-15095133">stuff like this</a> (not that all american fanartists do hyperrealism... she was just the first to come to mind). Really, motion? Fuck that. I'd take awesome anatomy and shading and knowledge of the human figure over "motion" any day.

Do you really think japanese people have some sort of super art gene? Wtf. It's just ignorance on the part of you japanese artist worshippers that perpetuates this inbalance.

And I don't know why people would rather see crap like this (http://i10.tinypic.com/4yupvuu.jpg) than stuff like this (http://fevereon.deviantart.com/art/Sephiroth-complete-15095133)

32,661 views and 2,216 faves = totally underappreciated? News to me. You may have a point overall, but your example could have been better chosen.

My problem is with the people like the person I'm replying to. I mean, those numbers to me say that english language artists have no "catching up" to do, but apparently large chunks of 4chan, LJ, and other sites seem to believe that we english speakers are somehow behind the japanese in terms of art.

Most people browsing deviantART have figured out that good english speaking artists exist, that's why they're there.

But you're right, once again, I fail at wording things right.

fevereon FTW! I have a couple of prints from that artist and they totally rule the fucking world.

Sorry for the repost.

I think your problem is that you admit you haven't seen many english-language fanartists. Just like everyone else who makes such rude generalizations. Sure, there are some that post in comms, but a lot of those artists are terrible. They're whoring their art around because they can't get hits otherwise.

There are AMAZING artists out there. And I don't know why people would rather see crap like this (http://i10.tinypic.com/4yupvuu.jpg) than stuff like this (http://fevereon.deviantart.com/art/Sephiroth-complete-15095133) (not that all american fanartists do hyperrealism... she was just the first to come to mind). Really, motion? Fuck that. I'd take awesome anatomy and shading and knowledge of the human figure over "motion" any day.

Do you really think japanese people have some sort of super art gene? Wtf. It's just ignorance on the part of you japanese artist worshippers that perpetuates this

Question by someone that has no real understanding of art:

What's wrong with the "crap" art :/ I mean, sure, it's not amazing, but I honestly don't see anything terrible wrong with it...

Okay, crap was definitely too strong a word. I shouldn't have said that. The anatomy isn't fantastic, the textures are very preset filter-like, the shading isn't very correct. I was just digging around in some zips I found on 4chan, and it was the first bad one I came across that I could be sure was japanese in origin, since most people don't realize how many english-language artist's work ends up in those zips. It's hard to tell sometimes which are which. And that certainly fuels the sort of "japanese artists are superior!" attitude that a lot of english-speaking fans have. God only knows why.

It's not awful. It's just sort of bad. And not very impressive. And there's a lot of japanese art that looks like that. Sketchy, hardly finished looking stuff that doesn't show a great understanding of anatomy, lighting, or just artistic techniques in general. Sure, there's lots of english-language stuff that's the same. But that's the point. There isn't a magical art gene that the japanese have.

Yes, I see what you mean. I remember this Japanese doujin where one character seriously creeped me out. @__@ Empty pupils is not a good way of drawing an eye.

W-Wow! You're so angry! That's amazing /o/ I mean, you are vastly more insulting with the assumptions you make about other people than I am by saying I generally find the japanese 'scribbles' have a lot going for them.

Incidently, I was specifically comparing japanese scribbles to english ones. Which are specifically all that you mentioned in your secret. Neither of what you linked are oekaki-ish at all. And, if it makes you feel any less righteously enraged, I'm pretty sure I have the second picture on my harddrive (it looks very familiar) meanwhile I've never seen the first and it's very boring.

Do I think a scribble with 'motion' is better than a full out wallpaper with good proportion, excellent coloring and mood and an IC character? Fuck no. But do I think a scribble with motion is better than a sketch of a character just standing there? Yes.

As I already said, and heavily implied! I don't care if the artist is american or japanese. I do think, however, as a culture, you can find more appealing low level art among the japanese. I actually do tend to prefer american artists for the high end stuff, because I do like realism, I like full out awesome fucking backgrounds, I like the fact that Americans tend to be more brutal, grittier and more IC dammit. But jfen produces those scribbles you're so jealous of en-masse. Are they ALL unconditionally awesome? No. Do I have plenty of them saved on my harddrive that are? Yes. Do I think the japanese as a culture manage this because OMG JAPAN IS SUPERIOR? No. I think they've just anime and manga as a part of their popular culture longer than we have. In recent years good american art has gone through the roof as we all grow up, as we get better, as we stick with it. We're catching up, that's all. But as a whole, in terms of numbers and averge quality, as we still behind? I think so.

Now that you've told me what my problem is, here, specifically, is yours:

Do you really think japanese people have some sort of super art gene? Wtf. It's just ignorance on the part of you japanese artist worshippers that perpetuates this

I did not say or imply any of this, anywhere, at all! I said that I cared about and enjoyed a lot of scribbly jfen art and you've blown it into amazing proportions! Seriously, mellow down. The fact that I like oekaki doesn't make me an eater of babies or a hater of american art or even a wapanese. It means that Jart takes up the vast majority of what is passed around the internet and I can admit that and enjoy it without taking it personally, or thinking that somehow defaces or degrades american artists. Try it.

Okay. So I'm overly angry on the topic. It's because you admit ignorance, then preach that you're correct in some assumption that you've founded entirely on ignorance. That's what my secret was about - ignorance on the part of fans like you.

I worded it wrong. I wasn't comparing japanese scribbles to american scribbles - I was comparing overall art. I was referring to the fact that people say that japan produces better and more artists than english speaking countries.

I personally don't explore much beyond whatever 4chan threads I'm linked to
I do think, however, as a culture, you can find more appealing low level art among the japanese.

Like I said. You don't know what you're talking about, and you are making bizarre generalizations as a result. Bizarre and insulting. Maybe you just don't see it, but you admitted yourself that you don't have a great view of japanese fanart and english fanart. So I don't know why you would present your views as fact.

We're catching up, that's all. But as a whole, in terms of numbers and averge quality, as we still behind? I think so.

The amazing ignorance of your statement baffles me. Do you honestly think that eng-fen haven't been doing fanart as long as jfen have? I'm not just talking about animanga/videogames here. I'm talking overall. I'm a little confused really with what you keep saying, because I just don't understand what you mean. Fanart isn't limited to anime style, either. So no, we aren't catching up, and forgive me for feeling very insulted that you seem to think we have something to catch up for.

Because we don't. English speaking artists have a LOT going for them. We're not blindly parroting japanese fanartists. We are not somehow deficient to the japanese in terms of art history. We are not lacking in numbers in any way, shape, or form.

What we are is somewhat underappreciated on some parts of the internet. And you're continuing to underappreciate us by somehow believing that we are trying to make up for something. That there is a gap we are trying to close.

Trust me. There's no gap. You might think you see one, you might think that you see things precisely and clearly, but you don't. And when you actually get to know english language fanartists, when you chill in artist alleys at cons, when you hang out on english speaking art forums, maybe then you will understand what I'm saying. But right now your views of the internet are skewed by 4chan and LJ or something. Because you just don't seem to see things as they are.

I don't care if you don't see a gap! I don't care if I do! I don't care if you think I'm wrong! I don't even actually care that you seem to think I am a fool for seeing the gap that is to you clear and unarguably not there! I'm not shoving my opinions down your throat. My comment was brief, it was phrased ENTIRELY to be taken as my opinion. The way I see things. I told you only that I felt I liked those scribbly oekakis, that I rarely see something that means as much to me, in scribbly oekaki form, from american artists. I didn't even say American's can't do that \o/ Just that I don't see it often. That when I see scribbly american art it lacks a certain something I typically expect from American art. NOTE ALL THE SUBJECTIVE WORDS THERE. Hell, go back and read my original comment. I think. It seems. I feel. To me.

What you're pissed about me doing I didn't do. You read into it, probably because you're pissy. Because my opinion angers you for being different than your opinion which you actually do present as fact several times. (I QUOTE: "Trust me. There's no gap. You might think you see one, you might think that you see things precisely and clearly, but you don't.") Please note the IRONY as related to this statement: So I don't know why you would present your views as fact.

Look, I won't even go into the whether or not American artists are better/worst/out numbers/older/younger/unappreciated/whatever. It's an empty argument. You are wrong in your assumptions of me, though. I have hung out at cons with american artists. Infact, of the four cons I've been to, three times I went with friends who were there for art stuff. I've watched over years people who I love very much grow into wonderful artists, people who started with mere mimicry of japanese art form and find their own wonderful style. Who learn to use proportion and perspective in ways 80% of the Jfen art I see either can't or won't bother to strive for.

My original comment was meant, specifically, not to insult americans or raise japanese on a pedestal, but to defend those little oekaki scribbles. Stuff like this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v120/erachan/Aviy/Elric029.gif?t=1189135040), which is messy and simple and vague but none-the-less makes me feel an emotion and tells me a tiny little story. This is the kind of art I love, regardless of whether or not it's by an american artist or a japanese one. And yes. I do find that good american artists, in a general sense, lean more toward one type of thing while japanese lean toward another. It's why I associate Americna artists with buffer characters, complete backgrounds, more interesting perspectives and why I associate japanese artists with interesting sketches and coloring and more emotional work.

Do you think I'm wrong? Fine. Go ahead. I've formed my opinions the only way anyone can: off my experience. I have, whatever you say, only presented them as my opinions. Disagree as you like, yelling at me that I'm wrong is remarkably unlikely to change my opinion, but if it makes you feel better, by all means.

I'm sorry you think you're shunned because you're an american artist. I love art. I love artists. I honestly prefer american styles to japanese, because the japanese habits of making everyone scrawny and young and a weepy uke drives me crazy. I'm sorry you found the implication that you have to 'catch up' insulting, but even if you weren't speaking specifically of anime/manga fandom artists, I was. And I do remember thinking, when I was younger, that all anime fanart by americans sucked. And I have long since stopped thinking that, as the fandoms I'm into grow, as the 'nromal' age for being an anime/manga fan goes up, so yes I feel like the American fanartists are catching up.

I still think you need to mellow down =\ I've read my original comment several times, I can see how you might find a few things insulting, but taking it to this degree was unnecessary. Furthermore, if you weren't originally working under the assumption that I think the Japanese have some super gene and thus shun Americans, or that it's impossible for me to say nice things about what I've seen about japanese fanart without it being a horrible blanket assumption geared to defeat all americans, you might have considered that the things you were insulted by really weren't meant in an insulting light. I don't want to argue with you /o/ I dislike that sort of thing in general. And I don't think I deserve to be attacked for my opinion, whether or not it's made in ignorance.

dude, chill. you're not making your side look any better.

I could not have said it better. Fanfiction is not without it's efforts, but it is in NO WAY harder than creating an original piece of work.

That fear that you talk about is exactly why I've only shared my original creations with a choice few friends and may never venture to publish them or even air them to general viewing on my friendslist.

It takes a lot of guts! It takes a lot of WORK. It's... no one cares is, I think, the worst part. At least in fanfiction people really do care. People want to read about characters they already love, they want to enjoy more. As expressed by the fact that I get FAR MORE comments on my fanfiction than my original work despite the fact that I put more love and effort and hopefully good writing into the original stuff.

Doesnht' mean I haven't spent hours angsting over fanfiction! Doesn't mean I don't find it more pleasant to work on original work. But. Is in no way less effort.

it's about Simon's journey to becoming a spacerapist.

A spacerapist? He is raping space with his drill...his drill that pierces the heavens? ^_^;;

Well, there are worse things he could be.

Yes. Yes he is. Raping the heavens.

It's okay, they like it.

Agreeing with your points on #28.

Ahaha, yeah, that was sort of the point. Getting a lot of feedback or being a BNF doesn't say anything about you or what you can do. So who the fuck cares?

I found out pretty recently that I'm apparently a BNF in my fandom, and it just weirded me the hell out. It's not like it changes anything, except that in my case I have people I've never even heard of emailing me and asking for help in working out their OCs to make sure they aren't Mary Sues. Which, while kind of flattering, is just weird. I don't even know these people.

Otherwise, there's really nothing to be said about it in my case. It's not anything important--particularly if you can be one without even knowing it. Which is also weird. WTF, fandom.

THANK YOU. So many people were agreeing with 28 entirely, and while I agree that good fanfic isn't for idiots, it's unbelievable to make the claim that writing good fanfic is harder than writing good original stuff. With fanfic it's like you're coloring in a coloring book; everything is outlined for you. With original stuff, you have to draw it all by yourself by scratch, then color it in.

[ SECRET POST #244 ]

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Talking Aviy talks /o/

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