[ SECRET POST #2291 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2291 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 020 secrets from Secret Submission Post #327.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

The female-character-bashing isn't "unfortunate". It's misogyny. Slash shippers are perfectly capable of enjoying their ships without hating female characters in the process.

[(Anonymous)]

You don't need to be a slash shipper to even bash females.

[(Anonymous)]

This. Weren't the majority of Ginny-bashers Harry/Hermione shippers? My god.

[(Anonymous)]

Another is the unfortunate hatred between Orihime vs Rukia. Stop it people.

[(Anonymous)]

drove me right out of bleach fandom back in the day, especially since i shipped rukia/orihime

they're still at it, i gather?

[(Anonymous)]

Still there sadly.

[(Anonymous)]

sad :C

i'll stick with reading the manga

[(Anonymous)]

You know it's possible to just not like Ginny, and perhaps be a bit hyperbolic in voicing it?

I think a fair amount of people saying "I hate Ginny, she's not good enough for Harry" probably really just mean, "I don't like Ginny and consequently don't like Harry/Ginny."

I would only assume someone was being misogynistic if they were really going on and on about it in a way that made it clear they weren't exaggerating. And even then, they could just hate her because they don't like her personality/characterization, not because she's female.

[(Anonymous)]

You have clearly not met any delusional shippers.

[(Anonymous)]

"I hate Ginny, she's not good enough for Harry" probably really just mean, "I don't like Ginny and consequently don't like Harry/Ginny."

wouldn't be too hard just saying that then, rather than resort to slut-shaming

i don't think anyone is complaining about people who just don't like ginny for whatever reason, it's the 'she's a slut'; 'she's not good enough for harry!'; 'hermione ~~deserved harry (for being smarter, braver, cooler than ginny)' stuff which grates & reeks of misogyny

[(Anonymous)]

Erm. Okay, could you elaborate on that for me a bit? How is it misogynistic to think one female character is smarter/braver/cooler/etc. than another and thus more worthy of getting the guy? I mean they're both women, it's not like they're comparing Ginny with Draco.

[raaj]

Not the anon but I think it's mostly about women being pressured that they HAVE to be so good to "deserve" the guy. This can happen when there are two male characters for a female character to choose between too, but from what I've seen in fandom it happens a lot more with women, both in love triangles being set up in canon to be a man torn between two women, and in how vehement fandom can get over tearing the other female love interest down. This is why it comes off as misogynistic, because it's applied more to women. It can get really weird too, like when you have two women who are perfectly decent people, if having a normal amount of their own flaws--why is Harry/Ginny bad just because Ginny's "good" and not "AMAZING"? She doesn't deserve to be with the guy who loves her? I could understand "I don't like how they interact" but if I see "she doesn't deserve him" I am hoping that is followed up by something big that would impact the relationship (a character vice like dishonesty, cruelty, etc.), not "she doesn't deserve him because she's not as cool as this other girl".

[(Anonymous)]

I agree it's misogynistic if someone hate Ginny for being a slut, but I don't see how thinking she's stupid, or annoying, or boring or whatever counts as misogyny. People can think male characters are stupid/boring/annoying etc too. Unless they thought a particular trait was admirable in a male but objectionable in a female, I'm not seeing why people should be attacked over which characters they like/don't like.

[(Anonymous)]

"but I don't see how thinking she's stupid, or annoying, or boring or whatever counts as misogyny."

Because she's not any of those things. She's dynamic and clever and fun. So anyone who thinks she's what you mentioned is clearly projecting with an ulterior motive, ie they don't like her because she fucks up their ship.

[with-rainfall.livejournal.com]

... but that's not misogyny, it's just rapid shippers pissed off that canon sank their ship.
I could say James is stupid and annoying for getting in the way of Snape/Lily. That doesn't mean I'm saying anything against men, it means I'm bitter that Snily didn't happen. (Granted, James is actually annoying, whereas Ginny isn't. But
my point is, bitter shippers =/= sexism.)

Besides, isn't there a difference between sexism and misogyny?

[(Anonymous)]

Except that two out of those three adjectives are largely, if not completely, subjective. You may think Ginny is a fun and enjoyable character while someone else may find her annoying and boring because the same traits that are aggravating to one person can be likeable to another. Some of the disagreement may be shipwankery, but some of it may just be different tastes.

Signed, someone who thought Harry was boring and annoying

[(Anonymous)]

That's a point that's not often made when it comes to discussion of people bashing 'ship obstacles'; they have an objection to the character to begin with, which is exactly why they don't want him/her paired with another character whom they do like.

And it happens to males; two of my first ship-fandoms were Luka/Abby (lots of Carter hate) and Snape/Hermione (much of which bashes Ron).

Now I'm curious if the H/Hr camp had it in for Ron as well...

[(Anonymous)]

exactly. when i ship non-canon pairings, it's usually because i dislike one half of the canon pairing. i don't dislike them BECAUSE i ship the non-canon pairing; the shipping is a result of the dislike, not the other way around.

[mimi-sardinia.livejournal.com]

I wholely admit to occasionally reading bashing fics and can say for certain that H/Hr fics can, and often will bash Ron, casting him as stupid, borish, glutinous, self-absorbed, mooching off Harry and/or Hermione.

Often such bashing comes hand-in-hand with Ginny-is-slut bashing, Molly-is-an-over-bearing-bitch bashing, and Dumbledore-is-a-master-manipulator bashing.

[veronica_rich]

Nope. But slash writers and readers, specifically female ones, are singled out for this kind of criticism because it's easier and more fun to make women feel guilty about liking something, than men.

That's a generalization, of course. I'm too old to feel bad about anything I like. Or, you know, I wouldn't like it. :-P

[(Anonymous)]

I agree with you on character-bashing. But I've seen people in fandom claim that being less interested in female characters (without bashing them in any way) is also misogyny. And that's bullshit. Some people prefer to focus on characters they also find attractive, in addition to finding them interesting. Nothing's wrong with that.

+1

[(Anonymous)]

This. In one of my main fandoms the majority of the squee is generally focused on the (admittedly) hot guys, and because of that there are some people who claim that we're all misogynists because of it. How about: NO. Of course we're going to focus on the guys as the majority of the fandom consists of heterosexual women! People generally focus on what they're most attracted to, no?

As long as there's no uncalled for bashing going on, I don't see the problem with this. I remember a few secrets ago some user was bitching because some people excluded Natasha from their all-male fanart drawings of the Avengers cast, and I was seriously like WTF? People can freaking draw, write, and squee about whatever the hell they want. Jeezus.

Re: +1

[writerserenyty]

Talking about me! =D

Seriously, sorry about my "bitching," but if you draw the guys of the Avengers and call it the Avengers cast, I'm going to be a bit peeved. If you call it the men of the Avengers, or something like that it'll be better. Don't ignore the existence of a female cast member. Draw whatever the hell you want, and this might just be semantics, but at least say it's the Guys of the Avengers or whatever.

Re: +1

[with-rainfall.livejournal.com]

Yeah, this.

Re: +1

[(Anonymous)]

I personally like to think of it as a representation of proportional awesomeness power. The guys are all roughly the same, and Black Widow is the universe that eclipses them all, and is thus unable to be contained within the paltry limits of the compositional picture plane. ;}