fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2291 ]

[ SECRET POST #2291 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2291 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 020 secrets from Secret Submission Post #327.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Ugh, this. I mostly hate it when people blame the lack of femslash on misogyny. I'm sorry, but fandom mostly consists of women. Most women (most people in general) are straight. Meaning most people in fandom are attracted to men, not to women. And while there are of course straight women who are also into reading/writing femslash, the majority of people who are only attracted to men will not find porn about two women particularly interesting. That is not misogyny, that's simple fucking logic. I don't like femslash, not because I dislike women, but because I don't find women attractive and don't want to read porn that does not feature a single person I find attractive.

I've only seem claims about misogyny when female characters are being bashed or ignored in fandom. But sure, maybe some people also claim that it's about the lack of femslash too.

DA. Oh, I've certainly seen A LOT of claims of misogyny in several different fandoms because of lack of femmeslash and/or het presence. Yeah, I don't even.

Most women (most people in general) are straight. Meaning most people in fandom are attracted to men, not to women.

Based on highly unscientific fandom polls, a disproportionately large percentage of fandom consists of queer women (mostly bi; some lesbians). So it's possible that your blanket statement isn't true. Or, if it is true, then I think there's a very good chance the numbers aren't as extreme as you're imagining them to be.

(Obviously, there's variation among different fannish communities, with younger fans tending to skew straighter. So I wouldn't be surprised if, e.g., Teen Wolf fandom was overwhelmingly straight, while Stargate Atlantis was plurality queer. But, taken as a whole, there are a lot of queer women in fandom.)

Possibly true, but even if the ratio of queer vs. straight women in fandom is higher than in the overall population, I'm fairly sure that straight women would still form the majority. Not to mention that I know a lot of lesbians and bisexual women in fandom who say they have no interest in femslash because they'd rather read about relationships that are completely different from my own (much like a lot of straight women aren't interested in het). So even among the queer women, a lot of them seem not particularly interested in femslash. And they're presumably not evil misogynists who hate women.

DA.

So which is it? Is it that of course everyone in fandom is a straight woman who only wants to write about or think about people they want to have sex with in real life? Or is it that everyone in fandom is a lesbian who only wants to write or think about people they would NEVER want to have sex with in real life?

Say, maybe both are influenced by tens of thousands of years of overwhelming global societal pressure stating, often explicitly, that men and their close personal relationships with each other are the only things that matter? You know, as part of the prejudices and biases all living humans are swimming in, and therefore inescapably influenced by?

Oh, no. I forgot. Fans on the internet are magically immune to the biases all other living human beings are subject too. They're perfect! Silly me!

Who, other than you, is implying that fandom is ~ALL~ of any one type of anything?

Some of fandom is straight women who like to read and write about people they'd have sex with in real life. And some of fandom is gay women who like to read and write about people they'd have sex with in real life, some of fandom is straight women who like to read and write about people they'd never have sex with in real life, some of fandom is gay women who like to read and write about people they'd never have sex with in real life. Et fucking cetera.

And for the most part, you don't know who is who or why they like what they like.

AYRT. The person I replied to started off by saying that fandom was mostly straight chicks who only care about hot guys, hence why all of fandom was only interested in hot guys. Then another anon mentioned that some fans are queer women, and they replied by saying that lesbian fans also only care about hot guys because they're outside of their experience, or something.

I was being sarcastic. I agree with you completely that fandom is made up of lots of different people. The person I was talking to was using over generalizations to justify exclusive focus on men, then suddenly switched to an opposing over generalization when confronted with their fallacy.

The line of reasoning is illogical. There are many reasons why we only focus on those at the top of the kyriarchy, and some are hard to get around (historical accuracy, say), but sometimes, you might "just like" certain things for problematic reasons. Because you're human.

These arguments just come across as insanely defensive to me. It was hard for me to accept this, and took a good decade (I'm an old lady, by fandom standards), but yes, I'm sexist, homophobic, panelist, racist, classist, and everything else, despite being on the minority/repressed side of more of those categories than not. I couldn't help it; I grew up on Earth. Where'd the rest of fandom grow up? The moon?

Not throwing any frustration or snark your way, btw. This is just directed at people in general. I don't see why it's so hard to acknowledge you might be human, maybe sometimes you like or do things for reasons that aren't great. Although I didn't accept this about myself until my early thirties or so, when I got over myself a little bit...so perhaps I do understand. Sigh.

"but yes, I'm sexist, homophobic, panelist, racist, classist, and everything else, despite being on the minority/repressed side of more of those categories than not. I couldn't help it; I grew up on Earth. Where'd the rest of fandom grow up? The moon?"

I'm too tired at the moment to figure out if my response will contradict the sentiments in my OP, but thiiis. Which is actually what makes me particularly defensive when I (or other people) are then bashed and intensely criticised for, essentially, being human, so maybe our reaction differs there.

ironically from my experience people are even harsher when you're part of the minorities involved. the people at the top of the kyriarchy don't seem to get any comparable flack. but because they're at the top of the kyriarchy, I'm already biased towards them and don't want them to get said flack.

i'm so tired of fighting, though. sometimes i just want to accept my lot and have everyone leave me alone - they can be bigots towards me, i can be bigots towards them. in the end i'll lose anyway, because the odds are generally stacked against me, and if people outside the minority groups I'm a part of are really that concerned, they can do the fighting and let me be the ally for once.

AYRT. Awww, don't give up! *big hugs for you* And don't let the SJWs get you down! So many oh them see everyone's privilege and bias, except for their own. Anyone who thinks they're immune is deluding themselves. Like I said, we're all human! All we can do is try to reach out to and love and support each other. The bullies aren't helping anyone!

So no worries! I've struggled with internalized self hate from all this stuff, too, which has left me very depressed at times. It's never your "fault" and you should never feel bad about it!

E-cuddles for you OP! You are awesome!

thanks. <3

sometimes, you might "just like" certain things for problematic reasons

But at the end of the day, if the most I can say about why I like something is that I "just" do, then maybe I like it for problematic reasons and maybe I don't. If I really don't know the reason myself, of course I'm going to get defensive when someone else decides they can tell me what it is.

AYRT. Hey, I'm not an SJW...I think they tend to be bullies. I'd never tell someone they shouldn't like what they like, or why they like it. I just think being self-reflective, and metacognitive, is always a good thing. So whenever someone suggests I might like something for problematic reasons, I think and say, "Huh, maybe I do," and mull it over a bit. Anyone who keeps giving me a hard time after that isn't worth talking to.

I guess one reason I feel so strongly about this is I went through phases when I was a kid where I had internalized self hate and bashed people like me. When I thought about why I liked things, sometimes the reasons weren't problematic, and sometimes they were. Once I finally got over being constantly defensive and angry, and just tried to keep an open mind, reflect sometimes, and occasionally try new things, I became much happier, both with myself and the people around me.

So it's not that I think there IS a problem with why X person likes Y thing. It's that it's a problem if X person is so positive that there couldn't possibly ever be a problem with anything they like that they won't consider it, ever. The human brain is an amazingly irrational organ...believe me, I know!

Say, maybe both are influenced by tens of thousands of years of overwhelming global societal pressure stating, often explicitly, that men and their close personal relationships with each other are the only things that matter? You know, as part of the prejudices and biases all living humans are swimming in, and therefore inescapably influenced by?

I like you.

And while it's perfectly fine to write/read what you want based on who you're attracted to (or any other reason - it's your opinion/your choice how you spend your fannish time) not all femslash is about porn. I get not wanting to read f/f porn because you aren't attracted to women and don't want to read about them fucking but there are plenty of f/f stories that don't include sex. Stories that are about two women falling in love or working through relationship problems or building a life together or trying to transition from friends-to-lovers or co-workers-to-lovers or having adventures/etc. So while you certainly aren't required to read/write anything that doesn't interest you, if your only issue with femslash is not wanting to read/write f/f porn, you've still got plenty of fic to choose from and a shit-ton of things you can write about.

I also don't find romantic relationships between two people I have zero romantic interest in very appealing. Not to mention that I enjoy reading porn in shippy fics, so why would I go out of my way to read a less appealing ship for which I'd also have to skip the porn if there's any? As you said, fandom is about fun. People read what they like because they enjoy those things, and I think shaming anyone for disliking femslash is no better than shaming someone for disliking slash or for disliking het or for disliking all shippy fics.

there's a difference between not being interested in something and disliking it

if you only enjoy pretty people having sex in your fan experience I don't care if it's different from mine

but if you say you dislike or hate m/m, f/f, m/f, porn with unattractive people, gen, or whatever then you get the side-eye because that's putting more emphasis than simply "it doesn't get my rocks off"

Wait what? I'm not allowed to dislike porn with 'unattractive people'? Or story types I don't enjoy reading (i.e. the 'gen' comment)?

I'm actually baffled. There are types of porn that go beyond "no thanks, not interested" into "actively dislike and do not want to see/read/hear." That includes sexual situations with people I find unattractive.

.......... is this some newfangled SJ thing I don't get?

you're allowed all your opinions and nobody says otherwise ftr

it is when you start with the vocal dislike of things because, fandom being for fun, you have the option of NOT LOOKING AT IT. especially if it's something so broad and obvious from the summary like f/f or romance with someone you don't find attractive or gen

so if you don't watch it, look for it, can easily avoid it, have no experience dealing with it and still go "UGH I DISLIKE THAT SO MUCH" then I side-eye because it sounds like you have issues with it beyond you don't find it sexy

but what do I know idgaf about porn

Why do you say dislike, though? That implies you have a problem with it. I don't watch French tv because I don't speak French, but I wouldn't say I dislike it?

I dislike french movies because I don't get their sense of humor. Nothing wrong with them or with me, just a difference of taste. Since when are we not allowed to dislike things anymore?

AYRT

I wasn't trying to shame you for not liking femslash. I was simply pointing out that if your only reason to dislike it was that you didn't want to read girl-on-girl porn, you can find plenty of fic without that.

I have a friend who loves femslash but doesn't like reading porn so I spent a good long time tracking down fic in our shared fandom that didn't include sex scenes and gave her a pretty solid list of things she could read. So that's where I was coming from in mentioning that not all femslash = porn.

But if you no have interest in it period, then that's fine. I don't have any interest in slash outside of one or two ships so I wouldn't bash someone for not liking femslash.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #2291 ]

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