[ SECRET POST #2291 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2291 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 020 secrets from Secret Submission Post #327.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I'm a woman sexually attracted to men (usually), but I ain't in fandom for the men.

I very much prefer to live vicariously through the adventures of other women. I therefore wish there was more women to focus on in fiction and fandom. Unfortunately, it's a self-perpetuating cycle; people focus more on the men because there aren't as many interesting women characters, and therefore fandoms give us more men to focus on because that's where all the attention is at.

Being gay doesn't make you special in this respect, especially with terming it "likely" mansplaining - there's nothing "likely" about it, anything more than misogyny is "unfortunate". And I bet that attitude follows you back into real life.

You go right on ahead and squeal over the flawless perfection of various guys, and continue to participate in the cycle as just another part of the problem.

[logicbutton]

This comment makes my eyeballs turn into little hearts.

OP

[(Anonymous)]

I fully agree with your second paragraph on the self perpetuating cycle.

I'm sorry for the 'likely'. It's part of my writing style where I automatically qualify everything because I'm scared of sounding like an absolutist who thinks there's no room for argument (at other times for instance I've participated in discussions and said that homosexuality is "probably not a sin"), but I realise in this case it made it worse.

The 'unfortunate' was tagged on as a last minute edit because I thought that without it it seemed as though I thought misogyny was okay rather than not-okay, but it doesn't seem to have been a very good word choice, so I'm sorry about that too.

"And I bet that attitude follows you back into real life."
I admit it's possible. As a possibly-relevant note, I'm also trans, and have had a long history of struggling with internalised misogyny as a result of my gender identity. But I'm trying hard to get better at overcoming that.

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

I guess you were transplaining

[altumcor]

First of all, I'm a gay man who would like to be entertained and be able to relate to gay men in fiction. (Note, I mean gay men, not men in general).

While I agree that female characters taking center-stage are very few and far in between, and even fewer still with well crafted characterisation, I see fandom's preoccupation with male characters problematic in the sense that these men are more often than not (implied or outright stated) heterosexual. Fandom fixes that to an extent, but for me, it can only go so far. Considering shipping and my aversion to fanfiction, the idea of slashing two male characters who may have female love-interests doesn't interest me in the least. Now that out of the way...

While I can still enjoy a show or read a book about heterosexual protagonists, but I would like to think that my involvement in smaller, underground, and independently-produced fiction which features gay male protagonists wouldn't be a hindrance for other writers and artists who wish to explore stories with well-written female characters.

[(Anonymous)]

DA. I don't think this is an either/or proposition. I would like to see more protagonists, and just more characters in general, who aren't all straight, male, white, middle to upper class, AND young AND able bodied, etc. That doesn't mean they have to tick all of those boxes. Just ticking one or two more often would be nice, I think. And it also shouldn't be a one "token" person per show limit, as it often is now.

Also, one thing that sometimes creeps me out about fandom is its occasional (not always) marginalization of canonically gay characters in favor of heterosexual characters in "if it's you, it's okay" exception same sex relationships. It bugs me for the same reason the obnoxious "no homo" tagline does, even if it makes some sense in context.

[altumcor]

It sort of felt like it did when I read it initially, but if my comment reads a bit too strong, I apologise.

But yes, yes, and yes. This is another issue I tackle with because usually, even with all the gay fiction I've read, the protagonists are almost always white Adonises with equally "conventionally attractive" white men who half the time are straight until the protagonist comes along. Then again, this is almost always a sign of an amateur in regards to the last part, but still.

And the whole "if it's you, it's okay", drives me nuts since it comes off that being heterosexual is part of why the other male character is attracted to him. And it sort of drives home why I'm come to hate this certain phrase which has been thrown around the gay community a lot: "straight-acting". As if, for one, heterosexuality makes a man, and two, that masculinity conventionally associated with heterosexual men is the epitome of attraction. Blah.

[writerserenyty]

I love you. <3

(I'm also a heterosexual woman who's in fandom for female characters/female celebrities).

[(Anonymous)]

It's sort of like subverting the James Blond cliche. I want that character that men want to be with, and women want to become. (I spend a lot of time living vicariously through Lara Croft and Granny Weatherwax...)

[(Anonymous)]

see, for me, as a woman i have zero interest in living vicariously through the adventures of other women because i AM a woman. i live that every day, so why would i want to read about it? i want to read about characters and experiences that aren't at all like my own, and i suspect i'm far from the only person to feel this way. the fictional characters i like most are almost always the ones who aren't like me at all.

for me it has nothing to do with focusing on men for a lack of interesting female characters and everything to do with just not being as interested in a character who is too similar to me.

[anonymouslyyours]

lol wat. All women are alike enough that they completely bore you. The only life experience different enough from your own to interest you is that of a penis owner? Shine on.

[(Anonymous)]

they don't bore me, i'm just not as into fandom for characters that are too much like myself. as i said below, i'm not interested in male characters that are too similar to my own personality type either. usually i end up being able to relate to female characters more than i do to male characters, which has the effect of making them less interesting to me.

the characters i like most are almost always total opposites of me in at least one major way. the more different a character is from me, the more fascinating i find them.

[(Anonymous)]

Uh, yeah... no. I just read that as you're saying that a character who shares your sex is, just on that basis alone, far too similar to you for you to enjoy.

I see a lot of problems in that statement.

I want to live vicariously through other women having life experiences and adventures that I'm never going to have, even in worlds that don't exist. Men already have the world revolve around them. Just for once, I want the world to revolve around *me*, even if it's a fictional world.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm a different anon and I think the original commenter might have worded that not so well, but I kind of get where she's coming from. I like to read about women and men, but I find each has its advantages over the other for me.

I don't have many men in my life IRL. I'm not close to any except for my dad (and even with him we're not supertight-close, just regular family-close). So getting to live vicariously through men in fiction is unique for me because it reminds me that it is possible for me to relate to them. As messed up as it may sound, I think it helps humanize them for me. Sometimes, just sometimes that adds a layer to my interest in a character.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm a NA to this thread but I wonder if this is why I just don't understand the "reading men as escapism thing," like, AT ALL. I've always had TONS of men in my life (friends, family, boyfriends, and now my husband) and there has been literally no difference between the genders in my experience. Difference between individuals, but the people I know subvert and switch any and all gender stereotypes way, way more often than they embody them. I am more similar to many of the guys I know than many of the girls I know.

So now I'm honestly curious: do some of the fans so fascinated with male characters mostly only have experience with men on TV or something? I admit I always find slash and slash bait written by girls so unrealistic. They characters do not resemble any man I have ever known in any way, shape or form. The guys I show it too find it unrealistic, too, and always know if it was written by a girl. They say the men seem totally alien. I don't know...

[(Anonymous)]

i guess i didn't word myself well - i like female characters just fine within the canon itself, i just tend not to be interested in exploring them more within fanworks. (and for the record, i don't have much interest in male characters who have similar personalities to me either.)

Just for once, I want the world to revolve around *me*, even if it's a fictional world.

see that's where we differ. i don't imagine myself as part of a story at all when i'm experiencing it, i'm more the third-person observer type.

i'm also not a fan of most modern real-world canons because again, it's too similar to real life in my mind and it just doesn't hold my interest. i consume media for things that aren't like my actual life at all, which is why i tend to prefer sci-fi and fantasy canons. in general, i relate to female characters better than i do male characters, which ironically means that i end up having less interest in them.

[mimi-sardinia.livejournal.com]

i don't imagine myself as part of a story at all when i'm experiencing it, i'm more the third-person observer type.

I sympathise with you there. I tend to think that I grew out of my self-insert stage early because I prefer to sit back and watch, instead of imagining myself participating.

It's like a tweet I posted last night (in the midst of a flurry of MTV poll tweeting): Thorin Oakenshield: I wouldn't say he's welcome to do what he likes to me because I'd rather he do it to Bilbo instead.

Maybe a little part of that is that the characters I like the most are the ones I'd probably think are total jerks IRL, but that exact jerkishness is what makes them fascinating characters to read/watch/play.

[astridv]

because i AM a woman. i live that every day, so why would i want to read about it? i want to read about characters and experiences that aren't at all like my own,

Wow, that's one of the most ridiculous things I've read in a while.

Dude, I'm a woman and love to read about the adventures of Natasha Romanoff who's also a woman and guess what (spoiler): our experiences are *nothing* alike!