fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2317 ]

[ SECRET POST #2317 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2317 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 048 secrets from Secret Submission Post #331.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Basically, there's a book that the Doctor realized is describing the situation with the Angels. The Doctor knows that as long as something's written, it's set in stone, and Amy's read that River breaks her wrist to get away from the Angel currently holding her. The Doctor refuses to help River get out of the Angel's grip and tells her to do it herself without breaking her wrist. He was a huge douchenozzle and it's the last time the really-should-not-be-husband-and-wife duo are seen onscreen together.

You left out the part where the reason he leaves was because he read the chapter titles of the book and saw the one that said "the final goodbye" - and freaked out about it. So he wanted to believe that River could find a way to get free without breaking her wrist... There's a lot more going on here than him being a dick just to be a dick.

Honest question: Why couldn't the Doctor just read the book? Wouldn't that have answered his questions AND assuaged his fears? And done so without him lashing out at anyone?

Edited 2013-05-08 01:07 (UTC)

Because he was scared about what was going to happen. If he read it it was set in stone - so he had already read that River would break her wrist getting free. Then he read the final goodbye chapter title which made him upset. He wanted River to get free without breaking her wrist (he couldn't see how to do it - which I admit is rather stupid but there it is) - so he left her to do it. He was hoping she'd figure it out and thereby change that future - which would then mean the final goodbye might not happen.

Because he was scared about what was going to happen.

So, no, there was nothing that was actually stopping him.

Again: He could have read the book to find out what would happen rather than goad his wife into breaking her wrist.

Given the setup of the episode he already knew she was going to break her wrist - that was already a given. It was going to happen no matter what he did. If he stayed it would have been HIM breaking her wrist. So basically he was fucked either way.

Argue that writing of the episode was over the top and ridiculous if you want - I'll probably agree with you. But I'm not agreeing to the idea that the Doctor was a dick given the set up of the episode.

But I'm not agreeing to the idea that the Doctor was a dick given the set up of the episode.

Sorry, but yes, he was. He lashed out at an innocent person--a person who was also scared, btw, and with far more reason, seeing as she was personally in actual peril at the time he was yelling at her--because he was upset, in a circumstance he could have EASILY fixed.

Had the Doctor read the book, he would have known about the wrist, but he ALSO would have known that the circumstances weren't as dire as he thought and he might have, I dunno, been nice to the woman he supposedly loves as she stands there trapped by a Weeping Angel, and again after she'd broken her wrist to free herself. Hell, even if he'd been there, and ended up being responsible for it, he would have been there for her, helping her, instead of LITERALLY adding insult to injury. She also wouldn't have felt the need to hide it from him later.

He already knew about her wrist and yes it fucking was as dire as he feared! THAT THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT! I don't get where you think reading the book would have changed anything other than to confirm his fears that the worst was going to happen.

yes it fucking was as dire as he feared!

And are you saying that the Doctor being upset justifies him lashing out as River?

No, I'm saying there was a reason why he was upset and lashing out. That was my point at the start of the thread. That he wasn't being a dick just to be a dick - which is why I didn't think it was all that bad to start with. I will have to watch the episode again to confirm but I'm not even sure about how much he actually lashed out.

Also I'm sure if he'd stayed and the only option really was to break her wrist to get her free, this secret would probably still be about how he was a dick in this scene. So yeah, basically fucked either way.

I disagree. If he had stayed with her and determinedly tried to help her get out intact until finally realizing that nothing was going to work and he was running out of time and couldn't dawdle any longer, and then helped her break her wrist carefully and as painlessly as possible, that would have been painfully sweet and heartwarming/heartbreaking.

Also, if he had offered to help her and River had instead thrown him out insisting she could do it herself, that would also have been a good route to take.

... possibly...

I think I'm hung up on the "THE DOCTOR WAS A DICK" of everyone's reactions, when it feels like that's not taking into consideration everything that was happening in that scene. And the part where he leaves happened very quickly - he freaked out about the chapter title and that's when he ran out telling River she had to free herself without breaking her wrist to change the future. Yes, I'm reading the transcript - http://www.chakoteya.net/doctorwho/33-5.htm - which not the same as seeing it but it fits what I remember of it too.

I think the main issue isn't that he made her break her wrist, it's the way he yelled at her for it and refused to help her and stormed out and was generally so insensitive about it. There was nothing stopping him from either a) staying with her and helping her do it or b) if he couldn't waste time doing that, being nice about asking her to please try to find some way to get out intact.

Or, if Moffat wanted to show him freaking out and being dickish for a moment due to stress, which is understandable, having someone snap at him for it and tell him not to be so childish, instead of having River sopping about how you shouldn't let him see the damage and how it's totally her and Amy's job to treat the 1200 year old hyper-evolved world-saving genius alien - who is still pretty mentally competent even after losing his entire family and killing his species and going through genocidal wars, among the various hellish things he's endured - like a delicate little cranky toddler who needs to be coddled, and all that bullshit. Really, it's more the context of the action than the action itself.

Also reading the book would not solve the problem of getting her free.

Fair enough. But at least the Doctor wouldn't be completely horrible to her, nor would she have felt the need to hide her injury from him.

If it had been something he didn't like though, he wouldn't be able to change it, so it wouldn't have necessarily helped at all. All it would have done was give him a script that he *must* abide by, at risk of destroying the universe if he tried deviating from it.

I think the scene was meant to show that the things read could not be changed or undone. Unfortunately, shoddy writing throughout the episode (like with Rory dying alone but not really in the end) undermined it. And that doesn't change the fact that the Doctor *was* a major dick about the whole thing.

Anyway, just trying to explain where I *think* Moffat was coming from. I'm not a fan of it (Moffat fails as both a "big picture" writer and a writer with consistent characterization), but they did try to give a reasonable explanation for it.

Yeah, this. What he did didn't bother me, just his attitude while he did it.

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[ SECRET POST #2317 ]

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