[ SECRET POST #2420 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2420 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 064 secrets from Secret Submission Post #346.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[darkmanifest]

Hasn't Sam been borderline-sociopathic and self-centered and pretentious from the start? I mean, that's kind of his thing as a character. There's a reason why he's the only brother constantly going evil. I feel like (well, I felt like, when I was still watching) the show should just commit to him being a villain of his own free will already.

[(Anonymous)]

Hasn't Sam been borderline-sociopathic and self-centered and pretentious from the start?

Yep. And it'd be a lot more interesting if the show would just embrace it. Fandom too.

[(Anonymous)]

Get this, I have always seen Sam's story as one of victim blaming and shaming. He's been constantly violated by the Supernatural his whole life, and those supernatural forces have been aided and abetted by his mother, his father and his brother. His mother sold him about before he was born, his father gave him a horrible childhood and wouldn't/didn't tell him about his suspicions and Dean brought him back from the dead and then believed that he had been changed by the whole deal. He's been manipulated, exploited and violated and because of that he's tainted. A monster, no longer pure etc etc. He asked for it, you might say, because he tried to live his own life free from the control of his family and hunting.

[(Anonymous)]

Being a victim doesn't absolve Sam of all his shitty decisions.

[(Anonymous)]

Almost everyone on the show has been victimized. It's more about the decisions they make after the abuse they suffer. Now, personally, I don't think that there's anything terribly wrong about Sam wanting to get out. I mean, yeah, it seems selfish to me because, well, if you knew that there were monsters out there and you just decided to fuck off and let people die...that's a selfish thing to do. But people are allowed to be selfish. It's one of our defining characteristics as a species. And Sam would probably end up helping people out some other way, so, shit, get him out of there.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think people take issue with Sam wanting out of the life. That's perfectly reasonable.

It's all the other shit that make people side-eye him (for example: when he quit hunting in early S5, abandoning Dean knowing he was Michael's vessel and being hunted by Heaven, not feeling the need to help clean up his mess from releasing Lucifer, only coming back when he found out he was Lucifer's vessel, then he was all about the quest because it was about him again, that kind of stuff).

Even in S8, with him fucking off with Amelia for a year, people didn't blame him for that, what they had a problem with was him not giving a shit about his missing brother or the teenager he saw kidnapped or the Leviathans running around eating people. He just got in the car and drove until he found a good place to stop. No one seems to blame him for wanting a normal life, they blame him for abandoning his responsibilities.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I get that, I do. Honestly, Sam is probably my least favorite character to watch on the show for all the reasons you brought up. It's really easy for me to start flat out hating him. But at the same time... I can't help but bring fourth wall breakage into it. Sam wouldn't look like half the asshole he does if badly plotted contrivances didn't keep shoving him out and dragging him back in (I.E. they needed Sam to not be hunting while Dean was in Purgatory, so they just shuffled him off with Amelia). And it's been a while since I saw season 5, but wasn't it Dean that sent him away and told him he was a danger to himself and others? I honestly don't remember and could be completely wrong.

[(Anonymous)]

Sam wouldn't look like half the asshole he does if badly plotted contrivances didn't keep...

See, like you, in the beginning, I always assumed Sam's assholishness was a result of lazy writing, but after, IDK, the first 4 years or so, I started to accept that Sam is genuinely, canonically an asshole. I mean, S8 for example, I can think of 3-5 scenarios off the top of my head that could have easily negated the shit-head factor of his year off, but the writers chose to make him an asshole. It's deliberate. Which makes it not so much a plot contrivance, and more.... canon, doesn't it?

[(Anonymous)]

Meh. I always thought Dean was the asshole, a messed up alcoholic, self righteous, borderline abusive asshole. Different strokes.

[(Anonymous)]

Dean is an asshole. And it seems like most of his fans admit it. It's part of what they love about him.

Sam's fans, for some reason, can't seem to admit he's anything other than a woobie victim.

[(Anonymous)]

Most of his fans admit it? Really? Yeah okay.

[(Anonymous)]

In my experience, yes. Even if they woobify him and think he's an abused, sparkly princess, they still admit he's an asshole from time to time.

I mean, isn't that part of his charm?

[(Anonymous)]

He is an asshole. However, he doesn't read as an asshole that would screw you over for his own personal gain or feelings, because of what he thinks he 'deserves',

[darkmanifest]

Aaannnd so has Dean. And so has Bobby. And so has Mary, John, and everyone else in the show. They've all been victimized by the supernatural, they've all made awful mistakes because of it, they all had to own up to those mistakes, and pay for them in blood, and if they survived the payment, try their best not to fuck up the same way again. Sam is not unique, and I don't want him evil because I think he's a monster who deserves a terrible fate, I want him evil because he's better at it than being a good guy, and might actually get something accomplished for once.

[(Anonymous)]

Mary, John and Dean all made Crossroads deals and paid price, Sam is the only one who did't make a deal but suffered the consequences of those deals made by his family both directly and indirectly. Sucks to Sammy, I guess.

[darkmanifest]

Uh. Didn't one of those deals bring Sam back to life? From being dead, and quite possibly in Hell? Sucks to be the guy whose brother loved him so much as to sell his soul for him, I guess.

[(Anonymous)]

Dean brought Sam back for Dean. Not because he thought Sam was in Hell, why would he? He made the deal for any number of fucked up reasons but none of them had anything to do with saving Sam's soul or whatever. It was a purely selfish act which set them on the road the whole Satan shebang.

[(Anonymous)]

da

Dean's deal was absolutely made for some selfish reasons, but it certainly didn't 'set them on the road to the whole Satan shebang'. The show has been painfully, stupidly clear that they were destined to be the vessels and all that nonsense long before they were born, and that it was inevitable.

And even if you want to ignore the destiny crap, technically it would have been Mary's deal that started them on the road to Satan, not Dean's.

[darkmanifest]

Why wouldn't he? At that point, they had no proof of Heaven but every proof of Hell, and Dean knew Sam's soul wouldn't just stop existing. The best case scenario was that he'd wander the Earth haunting some poor bastard (probably Dean). And how could bringing back your dead brother who died way before his time be "purely selfish"? You make it sound like Sam wanted to be dead before age thirty and mean poopyhead Dean was too cruel to let him.

[(Anonymous)]

What part of made a deal with demon, don't you get?

[darkmanifest]

What part of "Sam was the only person not screwed by that deal" don't you get?

da

[(Anonymous)]

Actually, he was screwed by that deal. That deal was the thing that really, truly set the entire Lucifer shitstorm in motion, because it's what led to the breaking of the first seal. He wasn't the only one screwed by it, certainly, or the worst, but he would arguably have been better off if it had never been made.

Re: da

[darkmanifest]

But there was absolutely no way to know that at the time. Sam should never have been born in the first place if anyone wanted to prevent those events from being set in motion, and I highly doubt Sam, for all that he's been through since, would have looked favorably on that (considering how he and Dean reacted when Anna tried to do that very thing). Why are people trying to defend Sam's character by implying it would have been awesome if he stayed dead? This conversation is weird.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes. I haven't been able to stand him since ep. 1.