[ SECRET POST #2426 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2426 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 080 secrets from Secret Submission Post #347.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[dreemyweird]

Well, repetitive arguments are a feature characteristic of Special Olympics, that's just the way things are. People debate these issues over and over, and the only progress that happens is in individual minds (often there isn't much of this, either).

The one thing that irks me when it comes to the Disney Princesses wank is that most of the stories are reinterpretations of fairy tales, and feminism is not even a thing in this part of literary culture. Talking about how misogynist these tales are is missing the point entirely.

[and, like, I get that modern adaptations aren't just analogues of the original versions, but to reinterpret means to take the motifs and play with them, not to throw them all away and introduce new ones.]

[tasogare_n_hime]

The one thing that irks me when it comes to the Disney Princesses wank is that most of the stories are reinterpretations of fairy tales, and feminism is not even a thing in this part of literary culture. Talking about how misogynist these tales are is missing the point entirely.

Agreed 100% People complain about Disney princesses being anti-feminist, and never once mention the source material Disney had to work with.

Then on the other side you have the people who blame Disney for ruining fairy tales, who ignore that there were all kinds of variations for most of those stories long before Disney ever existed. Cinderella has variations dating back to Egypt.

[(Anonymous)]

Egypt isn't a time period.

[(Anonymous)]

Look, I know many Egyptians hate being constantly tied to their ancient culture and they exist beyond that point. But when someone is specifically talking about ancient folklore traditions and they say "dating back to Egypt", that's a perfectly legitimate usage IN CONTEXT of Egypt meaning ancient Egypt.

[(Anonymous)]

Or you could have just said "ancient Egypt" or even "Egyptian mythology/folk tales." There's about a hundred other things you could have said apart from "Egypt," which is a COUNTRY and grammatically your sentence doesn't even make sense.

[tasogare_n_hime]

Anon above you isn't me, and please don't take your anger at me forgetting a word out on them.

[(Anonymous)]

For what it's worth, I'm the anon who first commented, and I didn't write the previous comment. I'm not particularly angry (especially if you just forgot a word), just pointing it out.

[darkmanifest]

The one thing that irks me when it comes to the Disney Princesses wank is that most of the stories are reinterpretations of fairy tales, and feminism is not even a thing in this part of literary culture.

I dunno about that, fairy tales are one of the few genres of stories where having a bunch of interesting female characters as the main heroes and villains, the centerpieces of the story rather than on the sidelines of some Dude Hero's epic adventure, wasn't a rare exception, but common. They always struck more as more unintentionally feminist than most literature (especially depending on the version i.e. The Grandmother's Tale versus Red Riding Hood).

[(Anonymous)]

I wouldn't say unintentionally. You gotta remember that a lot of these stories came from oral tradition, and served as advice for children and adults alike. There's nothing indicating that it wasn't women passing on these stories at some point or another. It's just that the advice they offered was based on the social mores of the time.

Obviously they are not modern-feministic, but a lot of them were for women.

[darkmanifest]

True, I've read in several places that fairytales were often told by women (and shaped by them) at many points - salons in the 18th century, women's sewing circles, mothers to their children. Just because the word "feminism" hadn't been invented yet back then didn't mean there weren't women-positive things going on.

[(Anonymous)]

Also, there are definitely feminist fairy tales out there. East of the Sun, West of the Moon comes to mind whenever this discussion comes up.

[darkmanifest]

My favorite fairytale of all time for exactly that reason.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't know what definition of feminism you are using, but there is tons of legitimate, critical, feminist scholarship of fairy tales (Marina Warner, Maria Tatar, Jack Zipes). To say "feminism" doesn't exist in that "literary culture" is frankly bizarre. If you mean they don't automatically conform to contemporary feminism, that's one thing, but Perrault, for example, was writing out of a salon tradition that among other things advocated against arranged marriages between teenage girls and old men. And even among the source tales, it's worth considering the implications of which choices Disney made among the available sources.

(I don't hate the Disney movies, but I hate that it's become "common knowledge" that all fairy tale heroines are passive, or victimized. That's never been true.)