[ SECRET POST #2442 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2442 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 045 secrets from Secret Submission Post #349.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[saku]

then don't act surprised when people assume that you, like many bisexual-identifying people, are phobic of, or disinterested in, people who fall outside of the gender binary. i also hope you aren't one of those people who think pansexuality is an unnecessary term, particularly given your response to the suggestion that you reconsider your own identifier.

[thene]

Assuming that bisexual people - not straight people, not gay people, just bi people - are transphobic, solely on account of our identity, not based on any evidence or behaviour, is biphobic. Why would I change my identifier in response to biphobia? The biphobia isn't going to go away just because I use a different word.

[(Anonymous)]

WOW NO

Not being attracted to trans people is not the same as being transphobic. You sound like that crazy guy who thinks gay men are misogynistic because they are not sexually attracted to women

[thene]

Anon, I was responding to the above comment:

"don't act surprised when people assume that you, like many bisexual-identifying people, are phobic of [trans* people]"

I agree that not being attracted to trans* people is not the same as being transphobic! Which is one of many reasons this argument skeeves me out. Though personally, I'm not fussy.

[(Anonymous)]

"people assume that you, like many bisexual-identifying people, are phobic of, or disinterested in,"

[saku]

not all transgender people fall outside the gender binary, that's why i didn't specify in my reply. you don't need to add it in for me because it's wrong to do so and honestly kind of transphobic. transgender people are not inherently nonbinary.

[thene]

I don't understand your response/I'm not sure what you're responding to here. Care to clarify? I don't need to add what in for you?

[saku]

when i was talking about phobia you specified transphobia when i didn't mean transphobia in particular. some transgender people do fall under the binary, like i said, so it's not the same thing.

[thene]

I'm sorry, I don't know of a better word than 'transphobia' to describe a phobia of people who are nonbinary (being as nonbinary people are generally thought of as being part of the trans* umbrella). Is there a word you would prefer that I used?

My point stands either way though: if someone's making blanket assumptions about how all bisexuals are phobic of the nonbinary community, that someone is being biphobic. That someone is as biphobic as someone who assumes that all bisexuals are non-monogamous, or that all bisexuals are promiscuous.

[saku]

no, there wasn't a word i had in mind. that's why i just said "phobic of nonbinary people." it was more accurate than transphobia.

i'm not saying all bisexuals are phobic of nonbinary people. i don't know how to make this any clearer since i've said from the beginning that i know not all bisexuals believe in the gender binary.

[thene]

You said 'don't act surprised when people assume that'.

You may be confusing surprise with rage, I guess. You're certainly being implicitly dismissive of the fact that this assumption is discriminatory. And you're not saying you'd be willing to speak up against this assumption. Would you? Will you, in the future?

[saku]

i know the assumption is discriminatory but in many cases i would also say it's justified unless indicated otherwise. i think it depends on the experiences a person has. it's easy to assume based on said experiences, but of course i'll combat inaccurate representations of bisexual people when they arise.

i'm really not arguing any of this because i want to be right. i'm discussing the subject because i want the truth. it would be shitty of me to not stand up for people when they're not being properly represented.

I AM ATTRACTED TO THE DARKNESS IN-BETWEEN ALL LEGS

[chardmonster]

I AM ATTRACTED TO THE DARKNESS IN-BETWEEN ALL LEGS

:D

[insanenoodlyguy]

You can not believe how glad I am that my randomly posted thing is now being used in serious conversation.

[saku]

straight people and gay people are phobic of nonbinary people though, primarily for the same reasons bisexual people tend to be phobic of nonbinary people as well. it's all in whether or not you agree with the gender binary system. if you do, then you suck. if you don't, then there's no need to have this conversation. i don't think bisexual people are inherently phobic of those who fall outside the gender binary. i do, however, think a lot of them are.

[thene]

But going at this discussion the other way, nonbinary people don't solely date pan-identified people imx? I just meet people who date people.

I don't agree with the 'gender binary system', although obv most of the people I meet from day to day are strangely obsessed with it. I am really not down with seeing bi-identified people singled out in this regard though, and that's what much of this thread is about; singling out a sexual minority for interrogation of their beliefs and desires (often while ignoring & erasing their actual lives, words and history).

[saku]

i'm only talking about bisexual people and their relation to the gender binary because bisexuality came up as an appropriate replacement of pansexual identities and i disagree with that. i didn't mean to imply that bisexual people are the only ones who do this since that's not the case at all and in all honesty i see more bisexual people who consider those outside the binary system than i see from any other minority group (but this is all from my own personal experience).

[(Anonymous)]

Saku, I'm assuming you yourself are outside the gender binary system. Perhaps even deliberately, painstakingly so.

Are you sure you just aren't dealing with people who don't want to put up with your bullshit?

[saku]

are you implying i'm trying to be a minority to make a point?

if people don't want to "put up with" my "bullshit" then they don't have to engage me at all.

[thene]

But you seem to be making a similar argument in reverse - that bisexual people should 'reconsider our identifier', are 'adhering stubbornly' to our identity, which implies that you think we should regard embracing pansexuality as an appropriate replacement for our identities?

[saku]

a lot of bisexual people are not inclusive as you are, which is why pansexuality isn't going to go away.

i'm not saying bisexual people are adhering stubbornly to their identifier, it's the adherence to the binary system that i'm talking about. and not all bisexual people do this. it is not bisexuality that i take issue with.

[thene]

I neither want nor expect pansexuality to go away! I would just like people who identify with it to stop saying biphobic things, and perhaps to do some shouting down when they see other people saying biphobic things. Because it seems to happen a lot.

[saku]

well i apologise for coming across as biphobic. i'm not; by your definition i would be bisexual myself and i am comfortable with that label if it follows your definition. unfortunately it doesn't in a lot of cases, which is what i'm disdainful of. it is more so the definition that i am against (the definition that adheres to the gender binary, rather) than the term itself.