[ SECRET POST #2470 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2470 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.


__________________________________________________



02.
[Homestuck, Teen Wolf, Supernatural and Sherlock]


__________________________________________________



03.
[Supernatural]


__________________________________________________



04.
[Watashi ga motenai no wa dou kangaetemo omaera ga warui]


__________________________________________________



05.
[Agents of SHIELD]


__________________________________________________



06.
[Sleepy Hollow]


__________________________________________________



07.
[Fullmetal Alchemist]


__________________________________________________



08.
[World of Warcraft]


__________________________________________________



09.
[Pacific Rim]


__________________________________________________



10.
[Richard III in "The White Queen"]


















Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 044 secrets from Secret Submission Post #353.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[iggy]

This really isn't a "bashing" fic. It takes Winry's habit of flinging wrenches to a particular conclusion that some fans don't want to see.

Unless the author treats EVERY SINGLE aspect of slapstick in the series with that amount of weight (which somehow I doubt), this is ridiculous. Seems like typical Ron the Deatheater to me.

[dragonimp]

Which other aspects do you mean? (honest question)

[iggy]

Um there's tons of other slapstick moments in the story? Slapstick hitting, slapstick... dying (are we going to pretend these are actual deaths now?), the list goes on? Arakawa does a lot of very physical humor, and while it might not be up your alley, to act is if one person engaging in it is a problem while ignoring the rest if fairly standard flanderization and die for our ship behavior especially when it's toward a woman and used as a gateway to pair up a favorite other ship. I don't have time to pull up the manga, and if we're talking about 2003, I definitely don't remember, but if you give me some time, I can provide specific examples. And heck, Arakawa actually drops the wrench gag for the most part fairly early on in the series.

[dragonimp]

Fair enough. I have written in the past about why the wrenches bother me when other slapstick doesn't (me; I can't speak for the author, only guess that her reasons might be somewhat similar, I know she finds the wrenches disturbing), but it's far too long to copy-paste here. But even if you take out the over-the-top, a-wrench-would-kill-someone aspect, it's still a pattern of violence. Most other moments of slapstick violence in the series are one-offs or instances where we're not meant to see it as anything but violent (Izumi tossing Ed and Al around, Knox hitting Mei over the head with the pan), but with Winry it's made a defining character trait. Treating that character trait with the same seriousness that the characters are generally given in canon is not automatically bashing. It could easily be, but this fic doesn't make Winry out to be evil or the villain. It explores her character and treats her pretty sympathetically.

[iggy]

but with Winry it's made a defining character trait.

but with Winry it's made a defining character trait.

Wow okay I'm done. A defining trait? That is plainly incorrect. If you seriously think that the wrench gag, which happens a few times in the series, is a defining character trait of hers, then you are pretty clearly paying no mind to her character.

[dragonimp]

It stood out for me. It's not her only defining trait; far from it. And I love her character. But with a wrench fling being her introduction to the story, it being her default reaction when Ed angers her by damaging the automail, her reaction to Ling when he embarrasses her, her reaction to Al when she's pissed at him after the Lab 5 incident - yes, I would call it a defining character trait.

But that's kinda beside the point. The author treats the violence seriously, but she didn't invent any of it. But she doesn't paint Winry as evil or the bad guy. Treating the violence seriously doesn't automatically make it bashing.

[iggy]

It pretty much does when you don't treat any of the other slapstick in the series with equal weight. Unless both Ed and Ling are ghosts in the fic because they've both 'died' comedically and god knows what other ridiculous things have happened are also treated as seriously as Winry's wrench, then yes, I think it's at the very least a huge double standard (and very typical of fandom misogyny and die for our ship behavior).

[dragonimp]

I went into how I view the slapstick and why some bothers me and others don't in that tumblr post I linked to; again, it's too long to copy-paste here. I can't really speak for the author. But even if all the slapstick is viewed as real events that have been greatly exaggerated for comedic effect - which I think is what the author is doing for this fic - it's still a pattern of violence. I'm not saying it has to be viewed this way - but I'm saying it's not a wrong interpretation.

[(Anonymous)]

But even if you take out the over-the-top, a-wrench-would-kill-someone aspect, it's still a pattern of violence.

If you take the slapstick humor out of it, there wouldn't BE a wrench, and there goes the straw you and the author are grasping at. But from the way you've gone on in this thread, you're probably going to say that Winry would have just punched people in the face because violence (which, what, was only really present during the slapstick moments) is apparently one of her defining traits.

[dragonimp]

It sounds like you're saying I'm supposed to assume the slapstick moments have no impact on the story at all and should be cut out entirely. I don't think the narrative supports that. They seem to me to be actual events that happen in the story that are depicted in an exaggerated way for comedic effect.

But the point isn't which of us is "right," the point is that there are multiple ways to interpret those scenes. Interpreting them as nothing more than comedic moments is valid. Interpreting them as moments of violence depicted comedically is also valid. The fact that this author took canon events and interpreted them differently than you do does not make either interpretation wrong or unsupported.

I'm not trying to argue that you have to see the events or Winry's character a certain way, only that there is more than one way to see them, and that this author did not invent anything to support her story. She merely took canon events and interpreted them differently than you do.

da

[(Anonymous)]

She merely took canon events and interpreted them differently than you do.

Oh come on, the author SELECTIVELY took canon events and USED them to support her pairing. Why not selectively take Ed's aggressively violent CANON nature and draw him to be an abusive asshole who chases away the people he loves most or ruins relationships because he's immune to kindness or reason? Because fandom would rise up and say it's BASHING.

You can try to rationalize all you want but the story is character bashing. Just because the author is sweetly saying Winry is an abusive asshole doesn't change that the author is saying Winry is an abusive asshole. Roy isn't held to the same level of accountability as Winry, and neither is Ed (or anyone else for that matter) for their MORE violent canonical actions and history. The author has specifically chosen an event from one character and *highlights* it as THE defining character trait, trying to completely hang her story on it, and then paints Winry in a repeated negative light because of it. You don't get to pick and choose canon and then villainize a character over a biased characterization without fandom being smart enough to catch on that it's bashing.

My problem (I'm not the OP, btw) with this fic is only partially about interpreting canon. It's about seeing past the author trying to feed me selective canon as whole canon, and trying to get me to fall for a characterization that the REAL author never intended. Character bashing is easy to see, except to the people who appreciate and approve of the bashing.

Re: da

[dragonimp]

...very well. You're determined to see it that way. I've said my piece.

[(Anonymous)]

This is reminding me a lot of that famous Ranma 1/2 fic from way back in the day that also claimed to "take Akane's violence to its logical conclusion" by turning it into full-blown mental illness and domestic abuse... all the while completely ignoring the fact that everyone else in the series engages in slapstick violence, since the series's humor is entirely based around it. It became obvious since no other character in the fic gets the "realistic" treatment for their own comedic behavior, they just drop the violence altogether (the final effect being total OOC-ness since no one acts like they do in canon). Tons of people loved it and thought it was so dark and realistic, but to me it just smacked of cherry-picking one single aspect of the story to distort and exaggerate to give a negative portrayal of a character you don't like.

Like, come on, the slapstick humor in FMA is even less pronounced, and gets phased out when things get serious. Unless this story also has Ling actually dead from one of his hunger coma or Ed and Al seriously horrifically traumatized by Izumi's training, which were all recurring gags as well, it doesn't get to claim that it's doing the fans some kind of service.

[dragonimp]

You actually highlighted why I find the wrenches disturbing. It's jarring and out of place in a series that otherwise treats violence seriously. In the case of Ranma 1/2, I agree with you.

But that's all beside the point. Treating the slapstick as seriously as the rest of the violence doesn't automatically make it a bashing fic. It depends on how the author handles it and how the author handles the character. But so far I haven't seen any arguments about why it's "bashing" beyond "OMG it's slapstick!!"

[(Anonymous)]

I disagree utterly. FMA makes a clear distinction when it's making a gag out of the violence, and when it's playing something straight. Ranma 1/2 has more comedy, but does the same. If I'm going to be disturbed by Winry's wrenches, I would also have to be disturbed by, say, the Armstrong siblings' chosen method of settling the inheritance issue. Hey, they seemed pretty serious about it at the time, and could have really hurt each other! Only not, because it's a joke.

The real problem with this, though, is that it makes no sense. If we accept that we're taking the wrench's damage capability seriously, then the very first time Winry injured Ed in the series, she would have been called out on it by all these characters who are so appalled by the behavior now (in-story). She has, after all, been doing this for years. If we're playing this gag seriously from the start then the dynamics of their relationship would have changed drastically and they would never have ended up together with nary a comment on it from any of the characters. It's exactly like the Akane example: she's always been like this, and nobody ever batted an eyelash before, but now that they're married it's suddenly treated like a serious problem that no one ever anticipated. This coupled with the fact that the fic is actually a romance based around a different ship makes it clear that this isn't a deconstruction for its own sake, it's an agenda to facilitate a rival pairing. Tale as old as fandom time.

[dragonimp]

The wrenches break the story for me; they don't for you. That's fine. That doesn't make either interpretation wrong, and it doesn't make an author treating them seriously "wrong." And it still doesn't automatically make it bashing. If your complaint is that "the fic is actually a romance based around a different ship" and "it's an agenda to facilitate a rival pairing" that is also fine, I am not arguing with that. It didn't bother me because of how the story progressed, but that's beside the point. You still can't judge whether it is or is not a "Winry bashing" fic on that simple and incomplete description.

[(Anonymous)]

Hey, if you're going to play the "for me, not for you" card, then I can just put down the bottom line as follows: for me, a fic contains character bashing if it invents and/or flanderizes a character's perceived negative trait (in a nonsensical way from canon's perspective, as I already pointed out) in order to break up an existing pairing and pave the way for a rival ship. There are so many ways to break a couple up without turning one half into a domestic abuser; considering the general consensus on abuse, this guarantees no reader could possibly work up any sympathy for the offending party. It's unnecessary and ugly.

[dragonimp]

Winry does come off sympathetic in this fic, but I do understand your point. I'm not telling you not to be bothered by that. I don't think it's fair to call it inventing or flanderizing when it's a trait pulled directly from canon (I don't think the line between this bit of slapstick actually happened and this bit of slapstick didn't really happen is all that clear, and is up to the reader to interpret), and I get irritated when this is called a "bashing" fic because Winry is treated sympathetically. My big beef in this whole thread is a)the OP is exaggerating to the point where I'm not even sure what they're referring to, and b)other people dumping on this fic based on very little and misleading information.

[(Anonymous)]

Believe it or not, I have read the fic, or at least the first part which deals with the breakup. Enough that I know the author actually brings up a few interesting ideas regarding the breakdown of the marriage... but then chose to follow up with the domestic violence instead. They could have gone with the angle that Ed and Winry were two kids who rushed into this thing and weren't ready and later discovered that they wanted different things out of life, and that would have been fine, if not even made for a stronger story. The violence is shock value at best and character bashing at worst. Forget the slapstick-or-not argument for a moment, it still seemed out of place simply because it's not a new development in their relationship, so Ed should have seen it coming long before marrying Winry rather than allowing it to blindside him like that.

[dragonimp]

They could have gone with the angle that Ed and Winry were two kids who rushed into this thing and weren't ready and later discovered that they wanted different things out of life, and that would have been fine, if not even made for a stronger story.

But that's exactly where the fic does go.

She specifically wanted to deal with the abusive (and how both sides were contributing to the poor relationship dynamic) because the portrayal in the manga of Winry repeatedly hitting Ed (and Al, and others for that matter) bothered her. Your point about it not being a new development is valid, but the fic doesn't really treat is as a new development - it treats it as something that escalated out of control. Meaning, he was used to her hitting him, but this time she hit him hard enough to do damage - in fact, the reason it blindsided him was because he was used to her hitting him. It's hardly the only way to interpret Ed and Winry's relationship, but it is valid - she didn't invent any of the violence.

[(Anonymous)]

I guess if you are already convinced that Winry's canon behavior is consistent with abuse then you'd be able to accept such a development as feasible. To me, it's balls-out OOC-ness that leaves a bad taste from the get-go, and I really couldn't care what happened to the characters after that because these weren't the characters I knew and loved anymore. Sorry, I don't really care for holding Winry alone to a standard that no other character is submitted to just to dump on her character. You've mentioned you're sick of this story and author being raked through the coals, but frankly this kind of writing and character treatment need no defense. It's super common.

[dragonimp]

My point still stands: she didn't invent any of it. I also don't see how it's a case of singling Winry out, since the story pretty much treats it all seriously.

[likeadeuce]

So, question, does the story acknowledge any of the way's Ed and ROY'S relationship is problematic? I don't even mean the age difference, I mean "Roy is a war criminal who enables Ed to participate in a morally dubious organization"? Or is slapstick wrench throwing the only negative dynamic that needs to be dealt with?

I mean, I don't know what canon we're going with but in first anime ROY MURDERED WINRY'S PARENTS. So focusing on Winry's negatives in order to set Roy up as an alternative seems odd to me. (I'm not particularly just talking about this story but that it seems to be a long-standing fandom trope, from what I can tell.)

[dragonimp]

It's Mangahood based. I don't remember if it specifically deals with Roy pulling Ed into the military, but it does go into Roy's past and Ishval and some moral issues around that. It also brings up Ed's temper and his tendency to run from problems (such as burning their house down) and the strain that that puts on his relationships. I'm not going to pretend there isn't a Roy/Ed bias to the fic; but it's not as one-sided as some are trying to portray it.

[iggy]

Bless you and all of your comments. Spot on.