fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2479 ]

Okay, so your premise is that people should be allowed to call themselves whatever they want. I challenge you to (if you can figure out how to pronounce it, since it's strictly an internet text term) walk up to the average American on the street and ask "Do you consider yourself USian?" The answer WILL be "no." Because we are Americans.

Okay, so your premise is that people should be allowed to call themselves whatever they want.

That... doesn't look anywhere near what Lynx said. Obviously, I can't speak for Lynx, not being Lynx. But I think it has more to do with, you know, people who live in the Americas should logically be called Americans. Which makes a certain amount of sense.

And for Pete's sake, there's definitely no need to throw a fit over it even if you disagree with it. I mean, I still call myself an American, but surely you can see the logic behind "People who live anywhere in the Americas are logically Americans", and the reasons why people might want to think that? It's really not that hard to understand.

*Sighs deeply* You don't read at all what I'm writing, isn't it.

1) USian is a recently coined term that aims to solve the unfortunate implicancies that the only "America" that counts is "The United States of America". The continent was named as America, a single America, way before you guys formed the original 13 colonies.

1.5) As a matter of fact, is not a strictly internet text term, and if I recall correctly, it's pronounced You-Ess-E-an.

2) You are indeed Americans. Nobody is stripping your nation of the right to be called an American nation. But the whole issue here, that I realize you refuse to see but it needs to be pointed, is that there are another 34 American nations. So you are an American, and I'm also American, and Inuits in the most northern part there are American, and Selk'nam here in the most southern part of the continent are American. Seriously; the USA is hogging a name that we all should be sharing. I hardly see how that's fair.

Indeed, I know that if I ask people from the USA if they are American, they'll always anser yes. What you're refusing to acknowledge is that if you actually ventured into any of the other counties in the continent (except for Canada, who share that worldview when it comes to geography) asking to the people "And, are you American?", you'd get a weirded out stare followed by an "Of course I am, I live in the American continent." Because that's what we've been taught. It's in our education and cultural heritage. Just take a look at the wiki in Spanish, for Pete's sake!

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/America

We are not speaking speaking Spanish. We are speaking English. Words mean different things in different languages.

If Americans can learn Spanish, and learn that in Spanish/latino culture, "American" has a different meaning and that they would be more properly referred to as something else, without flipping over a table and barging into discussions in Spanish to demand that they get to change the meaning of the word to what they're used to in their culture/language...

...What on earth makes you think you get to do the same thing in English? What makes you think you should be treated with any more respect than the aforementioned example of an American demanding that everyone accommodate them in Spanish? That would be ludicrous.

This is just as ludicrous. In English, there are South Americans (from countries in South America), Central Americans (from countries in Central America), North Americans (from countries in North America), and Americas (from the United States of America). There is absolutely no confusion. In English, we do not call people from London or Tokyo or Mumbai "Eurasiafricans". The vast majority of the world does not refers to all people from "the Americas" as "Americans" - "American/kan/ski/jin" means "someone from the United States".

As it does in English. Call it, and Americans, and yourself whatever you want in Spanish. You can't demand someone change their language and culture because yours views the world differently. I thought we all agreed cultural imperialism was bad a long time ago.

Oh wow D: This is making me sad now. I used to have a whole lot of respect for you, back when we met at the SMT fandom.

You're an educated person. Please read the other answers I've managed to type despite of being actually very tired and anxious. It seems like you don't realize the power dynamics into play here. The US is one in 35 countries, and of those, 33 have a different concept of what constitutes "an American identity". Yet it's your concept the one who prevailed, by virtue of political and philosophical influence when you were fighting your Independence War.

The US is a World Power. The rest of us are stuck in the Third World, and trying to get out of there with varying degrees of success. It's kind of weird how you refer to "cultural imperialism is bad" without getting any vibe of cognitive disonnance. Because the reason you could actually get away with using "American" as a word that means "Someone from the USA" is... cultural imperialism.

Because the reason you could actually get away with using "American" as a word that means "Someone from the USA" is... cultural imperialism.

How? Did the US force people to start using the term "Americans" to refer only to people from their own country in Spanish? Obviously not. You get to call yourselves, and them, whatever you want.

How do you not see that what you're doing is demanding that someone refer to themselves in their own language how you want to refer to them, as opposed to how they want to refer to themselves?

In English, the divide between North/Central/South America gives people an accurately descriptive continental name, and reserves the national name for the country that's always had it (as a national name, in English).

You're an educated person.

Yes, I am. I've travelled and been educated in various parts of the world. That is why I could call you on your attempt to claim the rest of the world as sharing your worldview. It doesn't. Kindly don't misrepresent the views of other nations.

I used to have a whole lot of respect for you, back when we met at the SMT fandom.

And having a debate about issues upon which we disagree changes this why, exactly?

I'm not demanding anything, and I've said ad nauseam that the only reason I'm still here debating at 3 am is that I'd like to have my point acknowledged, and only that. I'm not forcing the people of the USA to change the way they refer to themselves. My closing line for the first (or second?) post I did: "your view is valid, but so is mine. It's ok. Just please, don't ask of us to call you American in that way"

I've traveled the world too. And upwards there was an anon hailing from Central Europe that did say that there, in scholarly debates, the term "US-American" is used. Not just "American".

And having a debate about issues upon which we disagree changes this why, exactly?

Because I have good memories of those times, but now you've resorted to calling me a "cultural imperialist" just for disagreeing with you, and you're showing yourself as a painfully closed-minded individual that can't phathom the reason we Latin Americans + Caribbeans feel badly about this issue. You say it's all about linguistics (and it isn't), and political resentment (it isn't either). It's about cultural heritage and identity.

Most of us, from the paler Latino to the darkest, have mixed ancestry; and I'm not talking about blonde-caucasian-on-brunet-caucasian. Race is complicated, and we were deprived of our roots for centuries. But we all feel a sense of kinship on a basic level, no matter how we fight between us: We had indigenous ancesters that got enslaved and genocided, but also mixed their genes with the white Conquistadores, and black slaves brought from Africa. We're "Mestizos" ("mongrels"). We were colonized, had a religion imposed onto us, and got our liberty after. I doubt you know about this, but one of the most important things out of everything the Independency Wars gave us was that sense of kinship: "We may not know who the fuck we are, but we are brothers, and we'll help each other setting free the rest of America". Do you know about Simón Bolívar, by any chance? Read about him.

I'm not demanding anything

don't ask of us to call you American in that way

You're demanding the right not to call people from a given nation by the name they want to be called, because it has some other meaning to you. I've also said repeatedly that no one can force you do that, but please, please don't pretend that that's not grossly inconsiderate. If someone made up a different name for people from your country (a name that sounds ridiculous when spoken out loud, to boot) and started using that regardless of how you felt, how would you take that?

now you've resorted to calling me a "cultural imperialist"

I said that demanding someone use the name your culture uses for them instead of the one they've adopted for themselves in their cultural was culturally imperialistic. How is it not? But I addressed this in the other post below; let's take it there.

political resentment (it isn't either)

You just made a huge post detailing the political ramifications of American actions in South America and how this "justifies" the resentment you hold towards American nationalism and now it's magically apolitical?

linguistics (and it isn't)

Linguistics is also a huge part of it, though. English doesn't work the way Spanish does, or "USian" wouldn't be so incredibly awkward and unnatural.

It's about cultural heritage and identity.

Fine! That's cool. Call yourselves what you want. It'd be nice if you called Americans what they want to be called, too, and I'm certainly going to keep doing that, but like I said - no one can stop you. It would also be nice if refrained from calling Canadians a term they don't want to be called - but again, no one can stop you. You decide what's more important to you: your identity, or theirs. Your cultural heritage, or theirs. And.... well, you've decided.

I'm sorry you feel you need to respect me less because I don't share your view on this, but I will definitely read what you've suggested and reconsider the issue as you've presented it.

Thank you for all you've said on this. You've articulated it much better than I could have. (anon from earlier in this thread)

Hi! I see that you've had a gap in your English lessons at some point, so let me say:

You're taking false friends too seriously. The English term for "citizen of the United States of America" is American. It doesn't translate into the deceptively similar sounding americano in Spanish. That would translate, into English, South or Central America.

It can be confusing, but you're basically taking offense because the two languages have similar sounding terms.

The French word for request is "demande".

But if you "demand" something of an English-speaker, that's quite rude, no?

However, the English person taking offense might be understandably upset, and the French speaker made an understandable mistake, but the English speaker would never dream of trying to substitute a different, nonsensical word into the language to change that language to his or her preferences. That would be incredibly rude and inconsiderate, as well as kind of unintelligent, as they seemed to have missed the fact that they are listening to a totally different language.

Don't take assumptions about me. My English is self-taught, yet I've constantly scored as proffessional-level Bilingual in all the certifications made available by the Chilean State, partnered with the University of Cambridge.

When series and movies get dubbed? Despite the overwhelming majority of people who use the word "Estadounidense"? The dubs always say "Americano". It's a technical reason, mostly, so the lip-synching fits, but it's still grating.

For the rest of what you've said... *sigh * You really can't grasp that the way our school system educates us tells us that America is a one single continent, and anyone who lives in said continent has an equal right to be "Americano"? Go take a look at the Spanish wiki on the "América" article (apply google translate, it will mangle the page but you might still get the gist of it.)

Even more, most of the time, people from the US don't say US or USA. They say America. As if their portion of America was the only one that mattered. Maybe you really don't mean any harm by it, but for us it is erasure.

What they're saying is that you have every right to "Americano". Americans have every right to "American". Just like "demande"/"demand" they're false cognates. They seem like they should mean the same thing in both languages, but they don't.

I said there was a gap in your teaching, not that you couldn't speak it. You speak it quite well. But somewhere along the way, you missed the concept of "false friends". When two words from two different languages sound quite alike but don't mean the same thing (even if they mean similar things). That's what I meant about demande/demand. They obviously sound identical to each other, and might be a source of confusion, and might even seem pretty implausible to not actually mean the same thing, but...well, they don't.

When series and movies get dubbed? Despite the overwhelming majority of people who use the word "Estadounidense"? The dubs always say "Americano". It's a technical reason, mostly, so the lip-synching fits, but it's still grating.

Shame on the translators, then!

You really can't grasp that the way our school system educates us tells us that America is a one single continent, and anyone who lives in said continent has an equal right to be "Americano"?

I do grasp that. What you don't grasp (I'll say this in caps, not because I'm yelling, but because it's the focal point, and I want to stress it, so please don't be mad!):

AMERICANO does NOT mean AMERICAN.

Of course you have a right to Americano! That's the word that is properly used--IN YOUR LANGUAGE. In ENGLISH, American is used ONLY for those from the United States!

No one is taking "Americano" from you--you're simply not grasping that Americano does NOT translate into American! It translate into "citizen of the Americas!" i.e., North, Central, or South American. Yes, it's a bit more cumbersome as a word, but most of the rest of the world thinks of the three areas as being fairly separate.

Even more, most of the time, people from the US don't say US or USA. They say America. As if their portion of America was the only one that mattered. Maybe you really don't mean any harm by it, but for us it is erasure.

But it's not because American doesn't mean Americano. They are two different words.

Again, this would like with you steadfastly refusing to accept that the French are not "demanding" anything of you, they "demande" ('request') something of you! It doesn't matter how similar the two words are, because they mean two different things!

I was getting some much needed sleep and the notification for this woke me up. Now I'm insomniac AND annoyed.

I've seen you spam this useless piece of trivia on other comments and didn't say anything, but now:

1) you're missing the point. You're so far away from the point the two of you may as well exist in different dimensions.

2) DO NOT SPEAK OF WHAT A SPANISH WORD MEANS OR DOESN'T IF YOU DON'T SPEAK SPANISH, MOTHERFUCKER. You think I don't know about "false friends"?? My god, you're such a patronizing asshole!

'Ta. *goes back to sleep*

Edited 2013-10-18 06:38 (UTC)

I tried being civil, but apparently the language barrier is so great between us you can't speak English without resorting to swearing, so I'll speak the version you understand.

1) you're missing the point. You're so far away from the point the two of you may as well exist in different dimensions.

I understand perfectly. You're just incapable of coming up with a concrete argument, so swearing had to suffice where logic could not.

2) DO NOT SPEAK OF WHAT A SPANISH WORD MEANS OR DOESN'T IF YOU DON'T SPEAK SPANISH, MOTHERFUCKER. You think I don't know about "false friends"?? My god, you're such a patronizing asshole!

Tell me, when you use the word "Americano", does it mean "citizen of the US" or "person from the Americas"? If it means the latter, then I am right, and no amount of getting pissy about things is going to change that, ever. If it DOES NOT MEAN American, then you simply ARE SPEAKING MY LANGUAGE INCORRECTLY.

So you want to talk about patronizing? How about some ignorant asshole like yourself trying to take control of MY language and MY cultural identity because you're too damn stupid to understand what the fuck a false friend is, eh?

I'm a civil amd polite person perfrectly capable of doing a debate without using curse words, but you don't seem to understand how patronizing you are, and how rude. And you have the gall to act all surprised when I react with anger? You continue to be rude, and I'd be in my right to tell you to fuck off, but okay: let's settle this.

http://i.word.com/idictionary/american <- Merriam Webster definition, with history of the usage of the word included.

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(Anonymous) - 2013-10-19 02:17 (UTC) - Expand

What gives you this idea that people get referred to by their chosen names? Scotland sure as fuck hasn't managed to stop the UK being called England in common parlance, it's still wrong. Let's not even talk about "Egypt".

That said, the word "American" is actually ambiguous - it might mean one thing, but also another! So no need to flip your shit when someone uses US-American (or USian, although that's really weird to my ears) to clarify what they actually mean. Especially when they're in a context where they actually constantly make that distinction, such as living on the part of the continent that is conveniently deemed unimportant by your chosen name.

such as living on the part of the continent

The continent? Us Canadians just call ourselves Canadians. All of my Mexican friends and acquaintances are just fine with being called Mexican. Which part of North America becomes unimportant when people from the USA call themselves American? I live on the same continent as they do; I'm not.

Uhm, the continent (the Americas) does not just have three countries on it.

Canadians don't need to be called Canadian Americans because their chosen name is unambiguous, same for Mexicans.

There is literally a logical problem because the US's chosen names may logically also refer to millions upon millions of people who aren't from your country! This is not about the English language, it's about logic.

You have "Americans," but does it mean "Americans" from the continent(s) of America(s), or does it mean "Americans" from the country USA? Statistically it's more likely that we're talking about the USA, but statistically there are also way more people who have a claim to the "continental" definition of "American," so which do you choose?

The general rule of thumb would be that you specify when you're talking about the more specific case. Especially with South America (which is or isn't a thing depending on who you ask - and that one's got nothing to do with false language friends and everything to do with false geography friends, which are international, hurray!) becoming more and more of a player on the world stage, it makes sense to take into account the hundreds of millions of people who are accurately described by the term "American" but not "US-American" (such as yourself, apparently?) and just type those extra two letters. It's really not gonna kill anyone.

I know, I know, that was a tongue-in-cheek statement to point out that in much of the world, especially the English-speaking world "The Americas" aren't one continent - hence the plural. Canada, the US, and Mexico are on one. That is what comes to mind to us when you refer to "the continent"; and then the following argument makes no sense.

...And in our defense "The Americas" being one continent would logically make Africa the same continent as Eurasia, and I doubt kids are taught about "Eurasiafrica" in South America, either. Like the Europe/Asia divide, viewing North/South America as one or two continents but Africa as distinct is 100% political and socio-cultural.

...Though I really should add that if your "rule of thumb" for specificity applies, no one should get to call themselves "American". People from the USA should be "US American", people from Brazil should be "South American", etc. That's by far the most precise and specific terminology. "South America" may not be "a thing" everywhere but I've yet to meet someone who didn't understand what I meant by it from anywhere in the world, whereas even if "US American" were to be adopted wholesale and everyone from the continent(s) referred to as "American" you would still have tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of books, articles, films, etc. with the original usage leading to tremendous confusion.

If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander, right? The Americans from the USA put "US" on there and everyone else appends "North/South/Central" respectively. That seems fair.

That's exactly what people do though, so that's okay. When someone is specifically talking about North American (as opposed to all American) people, they most decidedly say North American - and when they are specifically talking about South American people (as opposed to all American people), they also say South Americans. Nobody would think to say "Americans" but willfully exclude all of North America, that's just idiotic.

I'm glad you admit that using a word that might or might not mean a few hundred million people more or less is confusing though. :D I'm just not sure why you think confusing language is awesome.

I'm just not sure why you think confusing language is awesome.

Because let's be honest: it's not really confusing language to native English speakers educated in an English-language environment - i.e. probably 95% of the people most people speak to when they use the English language. If anything, using "American" to mean anything other than "person from the USA" in that context is confusing. Using "American" to mean "someone from the USA" is the only thing that isn't. I like to not be confusing.

Of course, it's also what they themselves want to be called, and calling someone what they want to be called is, well, the non-dickish thing to do. I also like not being a dick! The problem is that two groups of people want to be called the same thing, and they want it to mean something different. Which is confusing. ...Only not to most English speakers, who use American for someone from the US and North/South/Central for everyone else in the Americas. So... it isn't actually confusing at all, really, it's just upsetting to some people who use different terminology in their native language and want that language to apply in English to because that's how they identify.

So let's just drop the "confusing" pretense and call it what it really is, shall we? ;p "US Americans" might be less hurtful, but it's not less confusing. /real talk

That's a pretty nice asspulled statistic - but at least on the internet, it's highly unlikely that you're looking at anything close to 95% native speakers.

and calling someone what they want to be called is, well, the non-dickish thing to do.

Unless, you know, they insist on a name that is dickish to a bunch of other people. :)

And yet, those non-native speakers understand what is meant but the word perfectly, or they wouldn't be offended by the intended meaning. Nobody said "on the internet", now did they? Which is why you have a number on fully grown adults on this thread along who've lived their entire lives without hearing the the 'alternatives' - American has only ever meant one thing.

So... being dickish to one group of people (by stripping them of the national identity they chose for themselves and have always had in their language/culture) is perfectly acceptable so long as you're not dickish to another group of people (who still have their national identities, as well as continental identities, but would like to retain the supra-continental identity that they're accustomed to in another language/culture by co-opting the national identity of the former).

Claiming that "insisting" on being called your own name is a dickish thing to do is a stretch.

Why is it that Americans must be the one to invent a new word and change their identities, anyway? Why not just keep using the word "Americano" - in English - to mean what it does in Spanish: "a citizen of the Americas"? It would hardly be the first world English has adopted from a romance language even though it technically has the same word and gave the new word a different nuance?

[ SECRET POST #2479 ]

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