fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2512 ]

[ SECRET POST #2512 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2512 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 062 secrets from Secret Submission Post #359.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Unless you can guarantee that no one's going to kill anyone else, you can't stand around not killing anybody, because you don't know that someone else isn't going to come try and kill you. And they're probably going to do it, because they're terrified that you're trying to kill them.

See: Thomas Hobbes

(in the original novel, IIRC, there is actually a group of girls who hide out somewhere and try to just make it through without killing anyone, but it all goes horribly wrong)

I assume that if we agree we're not going to kill each other and wait it out, but also agree that we'll gang up on and kill anyone who tries anything, that will make them think twice.

I don't generally assume everyone goes Lord of the Flies three seconds after leaving civilization.

Hm. That's interesting. Some form of contract. But what if people made secret agreements? Tried to form smaller factions, maybe do a sneak attack, win things for themselves? I mean, you can't guarantee that they won't. And that means that you still have to be paranoid all the time. And how do you make decisions as a group? How are you going to stop someone from using violence if they don't like the group's decision making process? Won't that just lead to a total breakdwon of order?

Perhaps it would work better if you all just agreed to let one person decide, and give him or her all the power, so that if anyone does try anything, he or she can just go and take care of things. Keep order no matter what. I mean, it can't be worse than living with the constant threat of someone trying to kill you.

(in case it's not obvious I'm basically just making dumb Hobbes jokes at this point; I think the real difficulty with your plan is the practical one that everyone is dispersed and it would be hard to get them to all come together to make an agreement without them thinking that you're going to kill them)

Yeah I figured ;p These types of stories tend to take a dim view of humanity, but in reality, there are just as many "and the survivors helped each other selflessly" stories as there are "and then they turned on and ate each other like rats" ordeals.

I didn't know we'd be dispersed. Are we never together at all after getting the collars/being told the rules, then?

The rules in the book are that you get released from the starting area at staggered intervals. So, yeah, you pretty much enter the playing field alone with no knowledge of what anyone else is doing out there.

I do agree that there's just as many stories about the one as the other, and personally I don't think human nature is either evil or good (but at the same time, re: Hobbes specifically, his argument is not really that human beings are intrinsically evil, or at least doesn't rely on it).

Ahhh I was less than clear, but for the latter stories I meant "accounts". In RL, you have desperate survival situations where people really did turn on one another (or at least one of them turned on the rest and had a clear advantage over the others, like a gun - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipperton_Island) but others, like the famous plane crash in the Andes, where everyone got along and helped one another to the best of their abilities.

Huh well that makes things more difficult, but I'd imagine there'd be a looooot of people just hiding. Or, like me, trying to find a cave or low place with overhead rock cover to block whatever radio or cellular signal they're using on the collars.

What if the collar is designed with failsafes that go off if they lose radio contact, or if the collar is interfered with in any serious way.

This plan seems fraught with danger.

Less fraught with danger than trying to murder everyone on an island in three days? If it has a "failsafe" then it has delicate electronic equipment. Scratch it open slightly and go for a swim. Or just go for a swim. It's excruciatingly difficult to water proof electronic equipment, especially to any depth - as a diver you become keenly aware of this. Timer/failsafe = toast.

EDIT: honestly the signal producer/receiver would also probably be toast at that point, so you might be able to skip the cave thing altogether. And if they've waterproofed it in any way there will be seals. Damage one of the seals, then do it. Given that seals are generally rubber, and given that the collars would be damaged in any sort of rough fighting - which must be something they'd have to account for if they want to see people fight to the death - they can't have a built-in sensor to detect small dents, scratches, etc. Maybe something if the device is opened completely, but a grain-sized hole in a rubber or plastic seal? Couldn't work. Then go swimming! Problem solved.

Frankly, I'd say that's the braver course of action than killing everyone. If it works, you've saved them all. Either way you're risking your own life. Would rather do so selflessly or selfishly?

Edited 2013-11-19 02:37 (UTC)

Going for a swim would mean you leave the island, which means your collar explodes anyway. IIRC there weren't any landbound bodies of water, and no guarantee it'd rain within 3 days

No it wouldn't. Just dunk your head. Get a bucket or rig up a pool if you need to. Moreover, the equipment that's causing the collar to explode would be fried underwater (either a cellular or radio receiver if you're being monitored - meaning the person monitoring you needs line of sight so simply do it in a hidden location/at night; alternatively a GPS tracking device that wouldn't be able to tell the difference between "no water beach at low tide" and "underwater beach at hide tide" based on absolute position anyway), so that's more or less moot if you damage the seals and go for it. It wouldn't go off.

Thomas Hobbes was a 17th century English Protestant, so he sure as hell did think that human nature is intrinsically fallen and evil. That premise would be so basic to any argument that he made that he probably wouldn't even have bothered to state it explicitly.

In Battle Royale they have bombs strapped to everybody. If there's no kills in x amount of time they will set off everybody's.

So what you're saying is, damaging the seals (assuming there are any) and dunking your head underwater to destroy the receiver/transmitter through which they set the bombs off is exactly what you should do.

But what if doing so also sets the bombs off?

How? They've set the bombs up to be triggered by salt water somehow? How did they accomplish this? What do you use to trigger a bomb with salt water - either electrically or with a spark - that won't also be destroyed by said water with the seals broken? Remember, anything you could possibly use to trigger it remotely is now destroyed. What do you use to "detect water submersion" and how does it trigger without electricity or heat? Moreover, how do you differentiate between participants actively trying to destroy their collars and participants who accidentally got their heads wet while fighting?

I fully buy that a bunch of high school kids wouldn't come up with this, but we're adults here, many of us college-educated and some of us scientists and engineers. It's obviously going to play out differently, and we'll have different solutions available to us.

Maybe there's a signal constantly being emitted from somewhere and the bomb goes off when it's interrupted. Or some other means of setting it off when it's tampered with - IE, you could have a mechanical trigger that's flipped when the seal is broken that won't be fucked up by salt water. The important thing, I think, is that you don't know for a fact that this is the case, and you can't really experiment, because if you make any mistaken assumptions, you are dead.

Moreover, how do you differentiate between participants actively trying to destroy their collars and participants who accidentally got their heads wet while fighting?

I don't think this would be a huge issue for people who are kidnapping a bunch of kids and forcing them to fight to the death.

(all that said, SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS the end of the novel does actually end with two of the last three contestants removing their collars and faking their own deaths - but they can only do that because the third remaining contestant is a superbadass with secret information he got by hacking into the government's computers, so it's complicated, and difficult, and relies on deux ex machina foreknowledge, but still, you are kind of right SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)

The problem with a mechanical trigger is that that could only act as a primer to set off the actual trigger for the explosive - which would have to be something capable of producing a spark, be it through heat or electricity, both of which would be destroyed by submersion.

The thing is, you're almost certainly dead anyway since only one person survives, and survival means doing something ethically reprehensible. Making a few calculated observations about the collar - does it have a seal? how is it receiving and transmitting signals? what kind of explosive is it likely to have based on the size/shape/mechanism? - then acting accordingly is by far the best option. At least, it would be for me.

(Oh then I'm completely right -_- if he "hacks" anything to deactivate the collars then it has extremely sensitive electronic equipment in it, and it would never survive immersion. Any diving computer is fucked eight ways from sunday if a seal is so much as scratched - and they could never make any trigger sensitive enough to go off at just a scratch and still have people physically fight each other.)

I just think that's way too many assumptions with way too high a risk factor. But I suppose there's not a lot of really good options when you're in that situation, and trying to disable the collar is a more optimal way to go out than others. I just don't think it would be anywhere near easy to disable the things. Maybe the best percentage play - but it would be more accurate to say it was the least bad percentage play IMO.

(Nah, he doesn't hack the collar, he knows how to disable it because before he went on the island he hacked into the government's computers and learned how to disable it. The actual disabling doesn't involve hacking, IIRC)

Re: Won't work

ariakas - 2013-11-19 03:27 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Won't work

(Anonymous) - 2013-11-19 03:35 (UTC) - Expand

The collar is made with Stainless Titanium which is can resist to impact, oxydation and water. Also, the collar is protected with plastic sealeant so is protecting the microphone, GPS locator, alarm system and the explosive detonator from water and shock. The detection system is using satellite control system, so the collar can be controlled from long distance at the operation base. The microphone is a military spy model which is can recorded everything up for 60 hours. With the time-alarm beeping system, it can indicated the carrier if he is almost out of the map, danger zones and explosive detonation time.

(From the wiki)

The island is also surrounded by military ships. On the off chance you somehow figure out the collar, they are there to shoot anybody trying to leave the island, and, if necessary, shell it to oblivion.

Edited 2013-11-19 03:31 (UTC)

So, damage the plastic sealant, like I said?

With all that shit inside it, salt water would destroy it pretty much instantly.

The military ships pose more of a problem once you get the collar off, but a) they're manned by people, people who could well be there "because it's a job" or "because orders" with no real desire or intention to kill innocent people and thus who could be swayed to "accidentally" let you pass, b) if there are caves on the island - as Japanese troops so adequately proved for months in the South Pacific - you can take cover from any potential shelling. And that was aerial bombardment, too, not the limited angle of attack you'd have from a ship. They would literally have to wait you out, or go ashore to try to find armed, murderous, furious people with a strong will to live, which they have no idea where they are (because the collars are destroyed) - which again, the Japanese proved was a deadly proposition, even in the face of overwhelming odds. If you picked off even a couple and acquired their weapons, it could turn into a bloodbath. You'd already know the ins and outs of the island, and how to hide on it, much much better than they would. Guerrilla warfare has beaten many a superior force in terms of numbers and arms. When you get the chance, raid a ship at night, seize it, and go. In international waters put out a distress call re: piracy to the nearest navy. They'll show up armed to the teeth.

Hopefully, though, during the weeks or months you're sitting in cover while they shell the island, the people watching this on Google Earth mention it to the UN/NATO/other governmental bodies with an interest in human rights abuses and somebody shows up to save the day.

Edited 2013-11-19 03:44 (UTC)

Can I just say that I utterly adore you in this thread? People are telling you that the setting forces you to kill or be killed but you refuse to accept this as an answer and keep asking why you can't try X, Y, or Z. And you're right, even if you're wrong and you get killed, it's still a better option than murdering schoolmates and/or dying.

I'd say you'd do pretty well in such a situation, or at least die with honor. (Uh, I hope that doesn't come off as creepy.)

Hahah no it's not creepy, it's insightful. That's really the position I'm arguing from. I just can't see why I would choose to risk my life to murder my fellow unwilling victims of some insane criminal enterprise over risking my life to potentially save us all. There's just no reason to choose the former, no matter how long the odds. Besides, even if I did die in the attempt, it might help someone else figure out how to get the collars off. Which would help save not only the rest of the people on the island, but everyone else who came after.

If you're going to die anyway, what do you have to lose? You might as well go down fighting the real enemy.

In short... you're going to die. :P

There's two people specifically on the island with your thinking.

One is murdered by the class sociopath. The other murdered by THEIR ASSUMED FRIENDS.

Edited 2013-11-19 12:47 (UTC)

Re: Won't work

otakugal15 - 2013-11-19 22:54 (UTC) - Expand

Did that not make it into the movie? I've been meaning to watch it ever since I read the novel back in high school but I still haven't gotten around to it.

I'm in the same situation, actually! So yeah, I don't know the answer.

I should really watch the movie at some point.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

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