fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #291 ]

[ SECRET POST #291 ]

⌈ Secret Post #291 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Posting for Shahni due to lack of computer and early due to class.

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 105 secrets from Secret Submission Post #042.
Secrets Not Posted: 0 broken links, 0 not!secrets, 0 not!fandom, [ 1 ] repeat.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Wednesday, October 24th, 2007.
Current Secret Submission Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Change your story to you yourself being a black person (assuming you're not, due to the example you've given), and you'll understand how very much this comparison fails. In fact, it goes quite far to exampling the other side of the argument, that people shouldn't get riled up about these words anymore. They're words. It's you that gives them power by being insulted, not the person trying to insult you. Do I really have to spew out the old 'sticks and stones'?

Just a random Joe rifling through these comments, but I found what you said very interesting. First of all, I think (and rather hope) that the original commenter is being sarcastic. However, you brought up an interesting point about hot-button language. While it would be nice to believe that words can only hold as much power as you would allow it, I personally think that, due to historical context and differing social backgrounds, this is rarely the case. Our society as a whole hasn't moved past this issue yet, and no matter how good your intention, there's always going to be someone somewhere whose personal beliefs and situation will cause them to find a certain word offensive, and they will be entitled to that.

I believe in the power of words, I also accept that some words can be used for harm, but I like to think that there is always the option of not using them if you can help it. Of course, others will say that this is one step away from censorship, that clear, concise language needn't be transformed into meaningless euphemisms for the sake of strict PC-ness, but as issues of race and discrimination tend to be case-specific and people's reactions are often influenced by emotions, it's kind of hard to remain that level-headed.

But I'm not here to conflate harmless language with decades of real oppression =) The point at hand is that I rather think the comparison is effective, simply because it is very narrow. As can be inferred by the tone of the secret, OP 7 likely does not go around saying 'faggot' because they do not believe it has the power to offend - on the contrary, they use the word for the expressed purpose of getting a rise out of other people. Clearly, this person accepts a priori the power of this word to cause harm -- they are no defender of free speech, just a mindless drama whore, cashing in on a sensitive issue to get attention. This similar attitude is is depicted in the example cited for comparison - even in a hypothetical situation, what reason would you have to flaunt the word 'nigger' around in a black community? The (hypothetical) person who does this also accepts the negative connotation of the word, and purposefully targets an audience that would be most affected by its use. This is how the narrowness of the example illustrates the similarity between the two cases, and highlights the extreme tackiness in OP 7's behavior.

The difference is that (in my viewing of OP 7's secret) the audience they are seeking to get a rise out of are not actually the homosexual male community (although I am confused on the community they are actually trying to get a rise out of - I can only assume they mean the yaoi community, in which I do see a lot of this behaviour.)

I myself would not use the word "faggot" in front of a gay male if he asked me not to, nor would I ever use the word "nigger". But I make it a point that I do not give words that 'should' be personally insulting to me any power, and it's a philosophy I openly sell to others (but I don't have a go at them if they don't buy it XD )

I understand what you mean, and - my being a foreigner not quite familiar with the situation in the US aside - I'm frankly all for it. The problem I have identified, though, has more to do with intent than targeted audience. OP 7 clearly expects a significant number of people to find the word 'faggot' offensive, just as the person in the example expects members of a black community to be offended by the use of 'nigger'. The secret maker does not specify what he/she makes of homosexuals, but in any case, we can probably assume that a - there will be homosexuals included in the the audience and b - non-homosexuals may also this word derogatory. And really, it doesn't matter. It's the thoughtless, attention-seeking attitude that stands to be condemned - a word may just be a word, but when used in the way that OP 7 has detailed, that is giving it rein to do harm. The best way to combat this is just to let these ugly words die with the negative meanings that they hold.

I'm from the UK, so my opinion is most likely a little skewed anyway (to me, while the word faggot most often means gay male, it could just as easily mean a type of pork offal meatball found in some fish and chip shops - perhaps this holds more over my perception of the word before I even touched the internet, but this is neither here nor there.)

Yes, in this example, it is trolling in it's purest form. But the best way to deal with trolls is not to react to them - you're only feeding them. In this way it should not be 'condemned', but ignored or laughed at. OP 7 is clearly only doing it for the lulz, and it's this offended attitude that they're looking for - but from the phrasing I'd say that they've had experience, in that they've possibly come from a community like 4chan or somethingawful, where the use of the word faggot (and nigger) doesn't mean anything anymore, and then used it in an LJ fandom comm and started surprise!wank. I have seen this happen myself, and usually the person who started it will just end up laughing at everyone for thinking that their opinion actually matters to them. Which, from what I can gather, is exactly what OP 7 is saying (and is, unfortunately, how most internet arguments go.)

But there's no reason to assume that the OP is a gay male, so why should it be necessary to the sake of the comparison for this commenter to be black?

It's the same thing. "I like to throw around a hateful, powerfully offensive slur aimed at a minority of which I may or may not be a part of, then sneer at people who actually are upset by this reminder of hatred."

And frankly, your argument smacks of victim-blaming anyway, which really bothers me as a general rule. :/

You do have a valid point there, yes. I was simply pointing out that this word no longer holds quite as much (yes, I know there's still discussions ongoing over the use of the word) power as it used to.

It's the same thing. "I like to throw around a hateful, powerfully offensive slur aimed at a minority of which I may or may not be a part of, then sneer at people who actually are upset by this reminder of hatred." - My point is that I believe the use of the word over the internet, where it's losing a lot of it's meaning, is a step towards it no longer being a 'hateful, powerfully offensive slur'. The same with people not being upset by it's use - not because they believe in the negative connotations, but because the word, to them, is losing or has lost those connotations.

I'm not victim-blaming. If I used the word "faggot" in front of a gay male, and he asked me not to, I apologise and not use the word in front of him again - I would not have a go at him for it. At the same time, however, if someone uses the word "cunt" in front of me, I'm not phased in the slightest, because of my opinion stated in the previous comment.

In which case you should treat other people who get offended by the word "faggot" the same way as you would your hypothetical gay male friend--you apologize and stop doing it, rather than calling them oversensitive.

When did I call anyone oversensitive? I said that getting offended at anything on the internet is largely pointless and a waste of energy.

In this case, my 'hypothetical gay male friend' has more standing on the issue than I do - however, if a girl asked me not to use the word 'cunt' in front of her, the outcome would be slightly different.

I'd say, in this topic, audience and context are everything.

I meant hypothetically, not you specifically. I've seen people call others oversensitive for getting offended.

In any case, I just don't understand why it's so hard just not to use words that are widely considered very offensive. It's not like you have to say them.

In general I don't use these words. But I do swear like a sailor. You don't have to use these words, but automatically not being allowed to use them... If using them means that they start to lose their meaning, then I'd prefer that over pseudo-censorship and PC-culture. But that's my opinion.

I don't mind swear words so much (I do curse quite a lot as well) because generally they're not targeted toward a specific group in society--at least not the ones I use, not intentionally. But let's agree to disagree. :)

My point is that the use of "faggot" on the internet has become a lot like that - no longer intentionally targeted toward a specific group of people. You can look through the history of a lot of swear words and see exactly the same thing has happened in the past - a 'light' one is "bastard", which used to be a derogatory term for people born out of wedlock. "Bugger" meant someone who participated in anal sex (and actually had a worse connotations regarding sex with children, originally.)

I know "faggot" isn't at this point yet, but I believe the way it's going it'll get there eventually, but only if we let it.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #291 ]

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