[ SECRET POST #2564 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2564 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 013 secrets from Secret Submission Post #366.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I don't want to take sides on any substantive issue here; I'm not saying whether OP is right or wrong to take this position.

I just want to push back against the idea that criticizing the state of Israel, or the state apparatus of Israel, is necessarily racist. Because I don't think it is, and there's nothing I can see that OP is talking about besides the specific political actions of a specific state. You can agree or disagree with those actions, with whether it has anything to do with Gal Gadot, with OP's stance, but I don't think it's racist, and I think we have to be able to talk about it without it coming down to racist or not racist.

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

Yeah, I got the racism vibe but wasn't 100% on that reading which is why I had the question mark there. I was genuinely curious and hope OP does poke in and explain a bit more.

[233c]

It's not necessarily racist, BUT the vast majority of the anti-Israel movement is borne out of anti-Semitism. You need to be very very careful where you draw your conclusions from, because most criticisms of Israel are essentially propaganda. The reality of Israel/Palestine is far more complex, far more difficult to unravel, and goes back hundreds, if not thousands of years. People have dedicated their entire careers to figuring this shit out.

[(Anonymous)]

Uh, no. There are certainly two sides to the issue, and the Palestinians have done bad things too (suicide bombing is not okay ever, and Israel does have a right to exist), and historically they were on the wrong side in trying to keep Israel from becoming a nation. But at this point in history, Israel is the one keeping the Palestinians from autonomy, taking their land, and treating them as second-class citizens. So the vast bulk of the wrongs are coming from Israel's side.

[233c]

Yeah, and? I never said there weren't two sides to the issue. My point was that it's impossible to point at one side or another and say they're at fault because this issue goes back too far. Things are happening now that are revenge for something hundreds of years ago. What Israel's doing now, you know, I don't support that. But anti-Israel propaganda's been around since there was an Israel. In the long run, "this point in history" essentially boils down to "since 1948" because this is just the latest chapter in a long, depressing history of the region.

[(Anonymous)]

Of course it is. That doesn't mean that at this moment one side isn't more right and one side more wrong. History matters, but bad things done to you in history doesn't make it okay to do bad things to people now who had nothing to do with that. Maybe its time to actually have a solution rather than continuing to fight old battles and take revenge for old wounds on people who didn't cause them. The people losing their land, not having equal rights, and not being allowed their own government or an equal say in this one are not the same people who tried to keep Israel from forming.

The point is, whether the solution is two nations or one nation with equal power for everyone, what's being done now is not the answer and is wrong.

[(Anonymous)]

The Palestinians have their own land and their own governmental authority, they're just doing jack-all with it. Except buying more rockets to shoot at Israel. YOu know how much that shit costs? Are their citizens seeing any of that money? No way.
Are they using that money to pay for their citizens to get quality medical care - which they WILL get in Israeli institutions? Nope. Heck, half the time Israel treats people for free, just because they don't turn away dying people, but then the PA won't pony up with costs to support advanced care.

Half the "land" that is cited to belong to Palestinians belongs to no one because there was shit-all there a hundred years ago when Israel was a wasteland nobody wanted. Read some of the documents from that time period.

And the "Palestinian" nation is a myth. You know who's Palestinian? my Jewish grandmother who was born in Israel a hundred years ago. That's what the British wrote on her birth certificate. Because the "Palestianians" didn't want to be called that, because - guess what- they considered themselves Jordanian, so it was the Jews called Palestianian.

Oh wait I forgot, all this stuff is facts and that has no place in the Israel-Palestine dispute. Oops, carry on.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh I forgot to add, they aren't second class citizens

They aren't fucking citizens AT ALL

Because they wanted their Palestinian Authority! So in fact, they are Palestinian citizens and not Israeli. Guess what? If they were Israeli-Arabs their lives would be way better. Israeli-Arabs have great jobs (including in the supreme court, hospitals, television, etc) and plenty of rights and a great lifestyle.

[(Anonymous)]

You should probably just stop. You're full of it and anyone with even a basic grasp of the reality of the complicated dynamics involved here knows it.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree that it's an incredibly complex topic (which is why I tried to stay out of the actual I/P part of the argument). But people being incorrect about something (especially about a complex topic) doesn't necessarily mean that they're motivated by anti-Semitism or malice; it could just be that they're, you know, wrong.

And I just don't agree that "the vast majority" of the criticism of Israel (not the difference between this phrase and "the anti-Israel movement") is born out of anti-Semitism. I agree that it plays a role in that criticism, a complex and hard to trace role, but I don't think it's reasonable to jump to the conclusion that any critique of the state of Israel is ipso facto an anti-Semite.

[(Anonymous)]

Funny how your only defense for the shit Israel keeps pulling in their gradual genocide is "BAAAAW ANTI-SEMETES"

[233c]

"genocide"

We're done here, thanks. Accusing Israel of genocide is more offensive than anything else in this thread, okay? Get out.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh are you also one of those who claim that Native American genocide is not a real thing?

[(Anonymous)]

If you deny this genocide while getting angry at Holocaust deniers you are a hypocrite.

[(Anonymous)]

Please do show us the difference.

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, slow your roll here. I was pretty much with you all through this thread, right up until this:

most criticisms of Israel are essentially propaganda

No. There are many completely valid criticisms of Israel. Maybe you're confused as to what propaganda actually means? Or maybe, to give you the benefit of the doubt, you're just trying to say "consider the source"?

[233c]

I suppose the word "most" has no meaning in the English language anymore? After all, I've done my share of criticism too.

(That being said, "consider the source" pretty much nails it.)

[(Anonymous)]

No, "most" has a meaning. So does "propaganda." I would agree that "some" of the the criticism of Israel is propaganda, but I take issue with "most."

[(Anonymous)]

most criticisms of Israel are essentially propaganda

You are an ignoramus.

[233c]

Nope.

[(Anonymous)]

My family is Jewish and I hate anti-Semitism (or any forms of bigotry for that matter). And anti-semitism is sadly still common (probably due to lots of effective propaganda)but your stance on criticisms of the Israeli army is just blowing my mind and I can't even agree with you...

[(Anonymous)]

Wow, there's the intelligent argument of someone who can actually back up their claims! Bravo, so convincing.

[(Anonymous)]

You keep throwing words like "vast majority" and "most" around like that's a proven fact. Or like it's relevant when discussing the *specific* statements made in this thread.

[(Anonymous)]

S/he knows it's not relevant. It's just all she has. Vague generalities and unsupported claims.

[(Anonymous)]

Completely new anon here, but this.

I'm Jewish, and without commenting in specific, I hate the idea that Israel is always and necessarily right. I (and anyone else) can disagree with specific policies or actions taken without being anti-Semitic or anti-Israel. But I would never voice any such concerns, or even questions, around most of my family, because to them Israel can do no wrong.
On the other hand, I absolutely, positively want Israel to exist and continue existing, but maybe with some changes in policy. (Oddly enough, that's how I feel about my home country, as well!)

Of course, there are definitely cases where there is an anti-Semitic subtext, but not all criticism of Israel is necessarily so.