fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #335 ]

[ SECRET POST #335 ]

⌈ Secret Post #335 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

I'm not actually around, Semagic is doing the work for me, so you guys do the name that fandom! :D

Also... the amount of not posted secrets today worries me. Perhaps some of you could do with a refresher on the rules and regulations?

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 47 secrets from Secret Submission Post #048.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 ] broken link, [ 1 2 3 4 ] not!secrets, [ 1 2 ] not!fandom, [ 1 ] WTF?, [ 1 ] Teal Dear Rant Sans Secret But Amusing Enough To Make A Seperate Category For Because Of The Tattoo.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Friday, December 7th, 2007.
Current Secret Submission Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Text can be interpreted in a number of ways, but really, it could've been succinct, genuinely curious, and as nicely worded as a statement like that can possibly be. I couldn't think of a way to sweeten it. And certainly the OP shouldn't jump to conclusions and assume no one of the cast has actually read the canon, but I'm sure there was background support for that idea in his/her head -- enough for it to be called into question at all.

I...have no idea what you mean by the second question.

In regards to the first: alright, so your objective knowledge of this canon is up there, what with having read the original canon, etc. etc. Objective, as in cold hard facts with no personal ideas cast on them whatsoever, not even a theory -- just the plain and pure storyline and characters therein. I would even cede you have more objective knowledge about the characters than most members of the fandom.

But that attitude, right there, is what can be considered condescending: because you have this private knowledge of the characters, because you "know the characters" better than, you don't seem very willing to accept the fact that anyone -- these people who are not so acquainted with the canon as you -- would even think of calling your perception of the characters into question. So you come on in where the OP is presenting the facts as s/he sees them, yourself armed with a multitude of knowledge which many members of the fandom would never have even heard of before and may never hear of again, and are incredibly quick to shoot this person down with facts you may very well be aware are not public knowledge -- facts which any critic would have to take a glance at and just...shrug their shoulders and accept. Because they can't disprove that, and it leaves absolutely no one with room to disagree.

because you have this private knowledge of the characters, because you "know the characters" better than, you don't seem very willing to accept the fact that anyone -- these people who are not so acquainted with the canon as you -- would even think of calling your perception of the characters into question.

Really now (http://community.livejournal.com/fandomsecrets/105718.html?thread=23813622#t23813622)?

I present myself trying to explain why and how it happened because the OP:

- Hasn't read the novels completely. Or hasn't been paying the right amount of objective attention (perhaps for the bad work Tokyopop did in translating as I heard from many complains in every corner of the fandom?). This why it surprised me that he/she/ said to have read the first two novels in English and yet told that Lilith, for instance, introduced IN RAM I and ROM I with brief mentions as Abel's old lover and the Dark Saint who fought against demons as as a "tragic mothergoddess" which isn't even accurate to what the little OUT of the novels is with her. That's only an example. Therefore, I gave her a background for her to judge with accuracy, including the plot focus. I DO AGREE with her observations of Orden centric. It's basically 'cause the good guys aren't making important moves against them. When we have a William, for instance, he tried to get Radu and Esther away from Dietrich. There was a struggle between William and Isaak, etc. However, the good guys' ranks are completely... smaller. There IS an Abel and a Seth. They could tell Lilith one day to help, but Lilith wouldn't work with Seth whom she SEES as an enemy of the world. Other than that, there was deadly ill!Caterina, Francesco without his Inquisition (Who hired Iscariot), Ion, Mirka and Asta who are not very powerful. Mirka's just arrived. Thankfully, Tres was applied so gives Caterina SOME hope. Tres was with Caterina in the Orden, he's the muscles to her brain.

But what I forgot to tell the OP is that Orden... kills itself: there's HUGE internal conflicts. Helga & von Neumanns (sans Kaspar who is sheltered from it) vs Dietrich and Isaak. In RAM, Helga, Balthasar and Melchior were killed by Isaak and Dietrich. They are from pre Public Enemy in the City, but the conflicts are subtly starting.

- Admitted (at least what I understood, please correct me if I'm wrong, OP?) that has recently checked and didn't know the development behind choices and such. The characters have been around since April (in Dietrich's case). Saying Radu never rebels, for instance, when he has and a lot... To the point he tried to KILL/ATTACK Dietrich, clued me in this. There is a period of peace, and one of rebellion, it goes in cycles with Radu's natural contradictive nature. Always for selfish reasons. Radu is even described by the Mangaka (as OP is familiar with Manga) as "such little, selfish person inside" and "fails" at being a human being. That's basically the sum of his traits.

I, as Ruxi, don't agree you can criticize characterization without knowing the canon. But if someone does, by all means, they can do it. I just won't agree with that. This case isn't exceptional, that's a personal thing I have since my times as fanfiction author.

...Jesus you're argumentative. And, again, missing the point.

Look, I'm not entirely interested in the canon background or the information you're presenting; I'm not even interested in the argument itself re: IC blah blah in canon blah blah look at this here blah. I've barely read the thread between you and the OP.

The point: The OP knows the canon, but not to the extent you do. Personally I find the idea that no one can criticize you without knowing the canon to be...a little...hmm. Narrow-minded, maybe? I don't like the idea of RPers who claim to want to improve actively invalidating criticism from anyone who doesn't "know as much" as they do. If you'd rather the person give you a thorough critique with canon basis, if you'd rather people be ABLE to give you a thorough critique, then why not present them the canon firsthand? Why not translate scenes and then make your points from there, and let them be able to interpret the scene and decide whether or not they agree with you? You seem pretty content with leaving critics in the dark, forcing them to operate on secondhand knowledge while remaining an absolute authority on the matter.

I suppose in the scheme of things there's nothing wrong with that, because there's nothing really that can be done unless you make the explicit decision to pinpoint where this and this happen, to argue with more concrete evidence and to let critics argue with canon basis. But, I don't know, if you want to remain as you are then I don't see why you should even bother asking people HEY GUYS HOW'S MY RP DRIVING if you don't like your style being called into question, and if you're the only one who can prove yourself wrong.

But, I don't know, if you want to remain as you are then I don't see why you should even bother asking people HEY GUYS HOW'S MY RP DRIVING if you don't like your style being called into question, and if you're the only one who can prove yourself wrong.

Er, I told I was taking in account what the OP said before (http://community.livejournal.com/fandomsecrets/105718.html?thread=23827958#t23827958)? Which I do.

However, I don't agree with her interpretation of the series theme or the idea of how to rp such thing. She sees the series should be rped as some good guys overcoming bad guys via humanity and such... which feels certainly more "Manga" ish, rather than the elaborated political scheme from the novels in which good guys can lose and has a more realistic touch.

Now her view ISN'T inaccurate, just different from my own as we both have different canon source preferences (she admitted to NOT wanting to continue to read the novels). And I won't accommodate to suit her taste in themes, because would have a problem with inconsistency of randomly and suddenly switching theme and feel.

I will take account her criticism and show more smooth sociopath Dietrich in sekkrit. He not always even act as that, one of his many scripts to play, but if she's more familiar with the Manga, might as well give her a glimpse of that as I did in the past.

If you'd rather the person give you a thorough critique with canon basis, if you'd rather people be ABLE to give you a thorough critique, then why not present them the canon firsthand?

I could translate! That's a good idea. Thanks. I might translate Public Enemy one day, if the OP is interested and not swearing off novels as they said? I'm kind of busy right now helping with translating a Hellsing chapter and working on a summary for Tres appearances in the novel, after that. I'm game.

Well, it may not be such a clear-cut line or victory in the novels, rocks will fall and people will die, but, uh, people will (and not wrongfully) remain fairly convinced it will and should happen. In accordance with storytelling and whatnot. Trinity Blood is a story, I'm led to believe. And I'm not sure you've noticed, but in stories protagonists tend to overcome antagonists.

Really, I'm not entirely sure why the idea wouldn't have occurred to readers of the original canon sooner. Unless they WEREN'T interested in giving out that kind of information and were content to remain singular authorities and whatnot. Feels like your argument and obstinacy here has shifted a tack, but hey, I'm game with that too.

I'm not sure you've noticed, but in stories protagonists tend to overcome antagonists.

Oh, of course. But ONE of purposes of the Orden has been fulfilled: the threw the Vatican and Empire in war. Empress was killed. The Vatican destroyed. Etc. Etc. The fact is the world changed JUST as they wanted it to change.

This doesn't mean in the very end, Albion won't be more powerful than Germanicus or King Ludwig II won't recover his rightful power. But at the point the author has written: the Orden has a victory. Orden isn't Cain, mind you.

That reflects Canon. But by all means and purposes, in rp games, particulary multifandoms, could work on other direction: Seth could kill Dietrich one day, when in canon it's him who causes her demise, or Lilith could have nanos take over and become 04, etc. It's all about the circumstances in game (or so I think?).

Really, I'm not entirely sure why the idea wouldn't have occurred to readers of the original canon sooner. Unless they WEREN'T interested in giving out that kind of information and were content to remain singular authorities and whatnot.

We're lazy? To transcribe that IS hard job. People who have access to Chinese language translation have been working on some bits and pieces. Still it's not the same than translate Manga, narrative is far trickier. Specially with the science fiction babble that threw me off of WTF Sunao's saying there. Like the glicerine in Radu's hands or how a Doppelgangers shapeshift with the cell-relocation. It's JUST so akward to read and wonder if you're reading right.

What's a good protagonist victory without a massive-ass hurdle in the way? It's not a total antagonist endgame victory, it's just good writing; and (while I can't say I feel too strongly this way, since I don't follow the RP you're in) I can see where a follower of an RP would be mightily uneasy watching an antagonist-prominent storyline where the protagonists -- characters made in essence for people to empathize with or support or at least know are going to eventually make it -- are just suppressed, suppressed, suppressed, with no hope of seeing what makes these characters the heroes/stars/the tried and true "good guys". That right there would be what makes it interesting to the Orden cast, I suppose, but I wouldn't blame a reader for feeling uneasy about it, and also I would hope your TB protagonist cast is completely comfortable with the state of things, as playing the canon "winning characters" in an ultimately losing situation might prove...difficult.

Not lazy. Disinterested.

That right there would be what makes it interesting to the Orden cast, I suppose, but I wouldn't blame a reader for feeling uneasy about it, and also I would hope your TB protagonist cast is completely comfortable with the state of things, as playing the canon "winning characters" in an ultimately losing situation might prove...difficult.

I perfectly understand this. But also has to deal with activity and IC-interaction. Protagonists, if they don't have a clear plan or power resources, won't win because they are magically protagonists. In the game, they are in equal level to any character, after all. That's why it's a game in which they don't have authorial intent's automatic advantage. And, as I said before, Orden has almost everyone in ranks and takes like many of the good guys to take down one of them. The numbers are also against them.

If we get more good guys players, then this WILL surely change.

~~Good thing we have excuses to not DO a masacre the protagonists (mostly: the political background and intrigue they are immersed with).~~

This isn't TB only happening: Naruto, Bleach, Death Note crews, etc, there's a clear advantage to the villains for sheer power/intelligence level in a neutral ground. This would change, of course, if good guys do some sort of backlash. Astaroth declared Radu a traitor in public, for instance, making have serious consequences in his social life (this is just for reference, that the good guys HAVE been moving. But there's also a problem in HOW to move: Orden's supposely uber secret, MOST of the good guys don't even know they exist/who their members are, etc).

I completely understand the OP's feeling but do you see my point too? I am fully aware Orden is winning, but isn't hard to imagine ways to make it crumble from their acts. Most of good people are new characters and they need to enlist allies before going into a suicidal struggle against seemly well behaved society members. ;)

I do get the point, but also OP should realize TB setting is in itself horribly secretive and adamant with confidential information. That Vatican won't easily cooperate with the Empire when Francesco so close and watching. If they did, it would be OOC. They are also enemies, they have a tentative, secret truce.

I hope you don't think this was an immature answer. I was trying to give you a loose picture of the rp situation (as you're unawere): political intrigue characters who are antagonists arrived, seized allies and control the ground FAR before protagonists are applied.

I know it'll be difficult to get it UNLESS you have been reading since the beginning.

I just started following these threads ... and I can't say anything on the RP or the canon (which I know is going to earn me something like "but why o why did you butt in, o arby's anon, bringer of beef and cow tongue?")

The reason why I butt in, kind readers and gentle anons and nongentle anons and other notanons is to comment on protagonists!

I perfectly understand this. But also has to deal with activity and IC-interaction. Protagonists, if they don't have a clear plan or power resources, won't win because they are magically protagonists. is something I must debate about! And say that yes, they do win because they are magically protagonists. Take YuGiOh, for example. The protagonist should, most often, never win! When they do it is a stroke of luck, chance, the villains fucked up, AN ANCIENT SPIRIT INVADED THEIR BRAIN AND STARTED KICKASS CRUISECONTROL! that sort of thing. Protagonists LEVEL UP! JUST in nick of time.

This isn't TB only happening: Naruto, Bleach, Death Note crews, etc, there's a clear advantage to the villains for sheer power/intelligence level in a neutral ground. This would change, of course, if good guys do some sort of backlash. This ties to it as well. Antagonists are supposed to have a sort of 'advantage' but protagonists have that factor X of being protagonists. That's what makes successfully playing antagonists in RPs so difficult. They have to maintain the balance of being their antagonist-y self as well as balance and maintain story atmosphere. They have to compensate and coordinate and work twice as hard as the protagonists. Is this fair? Nah, maybe not. But the very best RPs with antagonists are always the ones where it feels like canon, no matter how slated against the protagonists the situation is! Because you want to be recognizable from an outside perspective.

Pissed off reader syndrome is when something completely left wing appears to happen against authorial atmosphere and intent. It is almost never fair. But it happens and I, as the arby's anon, believe it to be valid.

Would you like fries with that?

is something I must debate about! And say that yes, they do win because they are magically protagonists. Take YuGiOh, for example. The protagonist should, most often, never win! When they do it is a stroke of luck, chance, the villains fucked up, AN ANCIENT SPIRIT INVADED THEIR BRAIN AND STARTED KICKASS CRUISECONTROL! that sort of thing. Protagonists LEVEL UP! JUST in nick of time.

In my honest opinion? That makes it for a bad role playing (and writing too, IMO, I'm not familiar with YuGIOh, so I can't elaborate further opinion).

They have to maintain the balance of being their antagonist-y self as well as balance and maintain story atmosphere. They have to compensate and coordinate and work twice as hard as the protagonists. Is this fair? Nah, maybe not. But the very best RPs with antagonists are always the ones where it feels like canon, no matter how slated against the protagonists the situation is! Because you want to be recognizable from an outside perspective.

But we're in a multifandom rp, not in a canon TB rp, not in the novels (in which SO far, the antagonists HAVE the advantage and then the author died).

Sorry, but I don't agree.

It's totally chill to not agree. You go with that frosty, I'll go with mine. But this might be why people raise some brows at the RP feeling "RCO controlled" (remote operating conventions?) and stagnant. Since protagonists give combo meals of change and antagonists don't move. It's part of the game (in the series, not RP) to balance it out, you know. It's what makes it exciting. WILL SO AND SO TRIUMPH? WHO THE HELL KNOWS? Otherwise there's no knife-edge tension, nothing to stay tuned! for.

Jus' sayin', from my POV there's a reason why the characters might be drawing crit or question marks. And I can say that I've seen it work to be what I thought was rather sexyness in other RPs before.

It's chill if you don't like my definition of sexy! Totally frigid~.

I know what are you coming from, but is the antagonists who are giving those "combo meals" in this case? If you read threads above, OP has an issue with the GOOD GUYS not doing much.

Isn't Light arguably the DN protagonist? It centers around him, after all. Definitely a more gray and grey sort of scenario, but that's just ketchup.

Light's the main character. But the antagonist. Proganists aren't always the main characters.

UH, YEAH. THEY ARE. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/protagonist)

Oh yes, my bad. I confused "hero" with main character. Protagonists could or couldn't be the heroes.

You seem to be under the impression that being the 'hero' of the story means that a character is fundamentally good! THIS IS NOT TRUE, because, well! Everyone is the hero in their own mind. The protagonist is, BY DEFINITION, the main character of a story. The antagonist is, BY DEFINITION, the person who struggles against the protagonist. Good and evil have nothing to do with it.

I realized already about protagonists and antagonists. Thank you. Heroes do, however, have to do with good traits.

HERO =/= HEROIC. THE HERO OF A STORY IS A MAIN CHARACTER. A HERO IN A STORY IS THE DUDE THAT SAVES KITTENS AND KISSES BABIES. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.

Honestly I think your inability to distinguish this is why it's coming up that your characterization of villains frankly sucks. I KNOW NOTHING OF THIS RP PERIOD, but nobody. NOBODY. EVER THINKS THEY ARE THE VILLAIN. They do not wake up and go OH HELLO I THINK I WILL BE EVIL TODAY AND GO SODOMIZE SMALL CHILDREN WHILE WHISTLING THE NATIONAL ANTHEM. They think! What they do! Is right! And you are obviously too stupid to get that.

If you follow that definition of hero. I had the understanding, a main character could be a hero, an anti hero or a villain in character stock. *shrugs* Most of the time, usually, the main (male) character/protagonist is known as hero, but not always could be considered one (and there's also the pesky narrator trouble).

Drop the caps. Please.

EVER THINKS THEY ARE THE VILLAIN. They do not wake up and go OH HELLO I THINK I WILL BE EVIL TODAY AND GO SODOMIZE SMALL CHILDREN WHILE WHISTLING THE NATIONAL ANTHEM. They think! What they do! Is right! And you are obviously too stupid to get that.

Thank you for your opinion. Pity I don't give a damn for it? :) If you want to start wank, please, do it elsewhere.

I am going by the definition that is in the dictionary. Look it up! Multiple uses for a word? WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT? Also, don't knock the cruise control for cool. You know you're just jealous.

But seriously. If your problem is that you are dehumanizing your villain to the point where he is nothing but a caricature of what you think Evil should be, then you are Doing It Wrong. I have read a lot of your other comments. I know the author has said that he fails at "being human." But that does not mean he's not a person. He is going to have motivations, he is going to think he's doing what he's doing for a CAUSE, and he is going to think he is doing it because, in his view, it is the right thing to do. This is how villains work. This is how PEOPLE work. Nobody is as two-dimensional as the person I see described in what you've said.

(frozen comment) Re: DOING WHAT TASTES RIGHT

sir-hellsing.livejournal.com - 2007-12-07 19:32 (UTC) - Expand

[ MOD INTERJECTION ]

shahni.livejournal.com - 2007-12-07 19:35 (UTC) - Expand

...actually, I would imagine protagonists are protagonists no matter the setting. Like it or not, a degree of authorial intent ought to be followed in fan work like RP and fan fiction and whatnot. The antagonists are super powerful, certainly, but, you know, there is a reason the underdog is so common a theme. It's not about them logically being the stronger force there, it's about how, in the spirit of storytelling, they are not meant to utterly triumph. Heroes in good stories lose for a reason. A story featuring such a hopeless situation would eventually get disheartening and mundane.

LOL yeah good thing because that'd be what I'd call...to put it politely, a poor decision.

I understand that the antagonists have done this and this and this, but really I don't see the point of the protagonists even being there if there's absolutely nothing they can do, if you are making this into a villain's story. I do hope there is a strong degree of OOC cooperation there, otherwise I'd have to feel so very sorry for your protagonist players indeed.

I obviously haven't! And, hopefully just as obviously, I don't intend to.

See, we'll have to disagree with this. I believe a character should be role played as a character, not as a label. That's just me. Victories and defeats should be given according to their work and plans.

And I don't think the situation is hopeless! Honestly. That was, IMO, an exaggeration. It's not like the bad guys are slaving the good guys. They are nicely apart and occassionaly poke each others. That's it. Why? Because of an intrigue setting and bad guys work on basis of customers (that often cross good guys). Current customers aren't. So. One bad guy (Dietrich) is tricking a good guy (Esther) as he DID before canonically. That's it.

I do hope there is a strong degree of OOC cooperation there, otherwise I'd have to feel so very sorry for your protagonist players indeed.

There is agreement! :D I play Lilith, after all, who is like the dead but BIGGEST hero in her canon. However, she doesn't act unless there's a genocide happening. :/

...in the end I think what is coming most strongly into play about this is your love for the villain coinciding with your lack of understanding of what a canon villain (esp. in the case of a story line Trinity Blood which is far less ambiguous than you would think despite the protagonists' setbacks) is for.

LOL YES A CHARACTER IS A CHARACTER IS A CHARACTER can and will be labeled; a story without a protagonist/antagonist formula inevitably encounters problems; no, it absolutely does not matter how much you like or empathize with a villain, because at the end of the day s/he IS an antagonist and any high school literature class could tell you that a protagonist advances a plot while an antagonist stagnates it and is therefore meant to be defeated.

I'm done with this. Absolutely nothing I am saying is getting through to you and I'm honestly beginning to question your intellect, which is a big red internet police alarm to bring this "discussion" to an end.

As you are being rude, I will too. Have a nice day! :)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #335 ]

McAnon/Teal Deer OTP

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McAnon should probably grab some lunch soon.

Go and have lunch?

McAnon loves the McRib.

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Arby's anon! (Ho shi-- we're branching out!)

Re: Arby's anon! (Ho shi-- we're branching out!)

Arby's again

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(frozen comment) Arby's anon has a ps

(frozen comment) no subject

(frozen comment) WENDY'S ANON

(frozen comment) Re: WENDY'S ANON

(frozen comment) Wendy's anon strikes back!

(frozen comment) Re: Wendy's anon strikes back!

(frozen comment) Re: Wendy's anon strikes back!

(frozen comment) Re: Wendy's anon strikes back!

(frozen comment) DOING WHAT TASTES RIGHT

(frozen comment) Re: DOING WHAT TASTES RIGHT

[ MOD INTERJECTION ]

McAnon's head/McWall OTP

Re: McAnon's head/McWall OTP

Re: McAnon's head/McWall OTP

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