[ SECRET POST #2772 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2772 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.


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02.
[Audrey Tatou, Coco Avant Chanel]


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03.
[Orange is the New Black]


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04.
[Recettear]


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05.
[Mad Men]


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06.
[Game of Thrones]


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07.
[Archer]


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08.
[Kate Beaton's Hark! A Vagrant]


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09.
[Sleepy Hollow]


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10.
[Divergent]













Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 033 secrets from Secret Submission Post #396.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

feminists hate tomboys?

[(Anonymous)]

I have this friend who is older (in her 40s I think) and very intelligent. However, she goes on a daily rant online about how feminists in the media hate women who aren't girly. Literally, every day. I've mentioned to her that I really haven't seen this idea floating around, but she'll say something vague like "Evangeline Lilly has been spouting BS again" and then leave the conversation at that. So I ask: is there a widespread sentiment among vocal feminists that being "unfeminine" is a bad thing?

Re: feminists hate tomboys?

[(Anonymous)]

As much as they'll deny it yes.

Because wearing high heels is empowering but having masculine interests or presentations is buying into the patriarchy.

Be warned if you ever point this out you will be gaslighted to hell and back.

Re: feminists hate tomboys?

[(Anonymous)]

So I'm assuming from the last line that there's literally no way to dissuade you from this view and you're fundamentally uninterested in talking about it?

Re: feminists hate tomboys?

[(Anonymous)]

DA

I assume you already know the answer and are just passive-aggressively calling out the above anon for expressing an experience different from yours.

Re: feminists hate tomboys?

[(Anonymous)]

I have never heard this. Where is your friend getting this idea? TV? RL?

Re: feminists hate tomboys?

[sarillia]

There are arguments about the way feminine things are demonized and some feminists go too far and act like women who prefer more masculine things are being traitors to their gender or something. Not sure it's any more widespread than the annoying feminists who judge women for "conforming to stereotypes" though.

Re: feminists hate tomboys?

[(Anonymous)]

This is my perception also.

Re: feminists hate tomboys?

[kaijinscendre]

Well, I remember calling myself a tomboy on F!S and some anon got all up in arms about it. I can't remember why.

Re: feminists hate tomboys?

[(Anonymous)]

It was probably me, because I despise that term. It undermines the idea that girls can like whatever the hell they like without being less of a girl.

Re: feminists hate tomboys?

[(Anonymous)]

I think you misunderstand the term. Girls who call themselves tomboys are usually the most defensive about any implications that they're not as much of a girl just because they do lots of "boy" things. I know; I was one.

Re: feminists hate tomboys?

[(Anonymous)]

It's a pretty varied movement, yeah, and I'm pretty sure some of the extreme sections might think that woman who are interested in masculine things do it because they're woman hating or something, but it's not a sentiment I've encountered much. If anything, I've seen more misguided stuff like "she must be non-binary because she isn't interested in stereotypically feminine things."

Re: feminists hate tomboys?

[(Anonymous)]

Honestly, I see way more of the opposite. "I don't have any women as friends because they wear makeup and are all catty! I love sports and don't care how I look and I'm just ~one of the guys~!"

Ugh.

Re: feminists hate tomboys?

[(Anonymous)]

nayrt

Those people don't claim to be feminists, though. I think OP was talking only about people who claim to be feminists.

Re: feminists hate tomboys?

[(Anonymous)]

"Feminism" isn't one movement, is the thing. There's no hivemind that states what's right and wrong in a feminist mindset-- and in some ways that's good, but in some ways that's really bad and it hurts the entire philosophy behind in.

So yes, there are vocal feminists that believe that, without realizing (or worse, knowing and not caring) that they're throwing a huge swath of women under the bus. There are also vocal feminists that believe exactly the opposite, that conforming to stereotypically feminine behaviors and actions is a bad thing, thus throwing all feminine-presenting women under the bus instead.

↑This

[raspberryrain]

That's been my experience as well. Almost any time someone says, "feminists think X," it's going to be some crazy generalization, whether the speaker agrees with it or disagrees with it.

I don't remember anti-tomboy being a thing, but somewhere it probably is. Doesn't sound like good feminism to me, though.

Mostly, when I read things by self-described feminists, I see lots of explaining that you can be as girly/ungirly as you want and it doesn't matter. But that may be because I tend to read people who are tolerant and sane, and tend not to keep reading those self-declared "feminists" who are totally hateful.

And anyone who looks at my work can probably tell that I'm totally pro-tomboy and pro-superfemme, and they should know not even to try to give me that nonsense.

Re: feminists hate tomboys?

[philstar22]

Some people who call themselves feminists. But I wouldn't call them a real feminist. Because real feminism is about equality and choice. It is about women being free to choose. It is possible to critique the societal pressures that can help shape feminine traits in women while at the same time believing that every woman should be free to be as feminine, as masculine, or as whatever she wants to be.

Re: feminists hate tomboys?

[(Anonymous)]

No.

Feminism is about equality solely and above all else.

I choose my choice is the cancer killing feminism, well it and an obsession with intersectionality which leads to such a fractured reality as to make the movement useless.

If you want to imagine choice being the defining feature of feminism, imagine Charlotte from sex in the city stamping her feet like a toddler having a temper tantrum because her friends told her to stop being a womanchild, forever.

Re: feminists hate tomboys?

[philstar22]

Sorry, but I disagree. Especially about your complaint about intersectionality. Intersectionality is super important. There are all sorts of women and many different forms of oppression, and their unique concerns should absolutely be part of the conversation and the fight.

As long as a woman's choice doesn't interfere with other woman's she should be free to choose. I can criticize the societal pressures for a woman to become a housewife while at the same time think that it is a perfectly valid choice that is right for many women. As long as they aren't telling me I should be a housewife too, they should be free to live their lives as the choose. It isn't what I want, but that doesn't make it a wrong choice to make.

Re: feminists hate tomboys?

[(Anonymous)]

There's no such thing as a "real feminist", anyone who uses the label is a feminist.

Re: feminists hate tomboys?

[(Anonymous)]

I think your friend is too far down the rabbit hole of bitterness and has lost touch with reality, so any time she hears criticism of "girly" girls, it's like putting a match to a pile of kerosene-soaked firecrackers. Yes, some people ("feminists" included) are down on "girly" girls. Plenty of people are still down on women who don't present traditionally "feminine" traits, however, and plenty of people think it's a good idea to let people dress as "girly" or "ungirly" as they want without judgement.

You'd be doing yourself (and possibly your friend) a favor if you didn't rise to her bait, and just went, "Uh huh. Hey, have you seen Guardians of the Galaxy yet?"

Re: feminists hate tomboys?

[(Anonymous)]

I've seen it around. You'll see it come up on Tumblr. I think it springs from the same users who are interested in "weaponized femininity". I saw the Evangeline Lily thing and it pissed me off, personally, but I don't think it's really common.

I think feminine characters are great, by the way; I just think that it's lousy to put one character type (feminine or masculine) over the other because women "are naturally" some way, which is how the Evangeline Lily thing struck me. Just to be clear.

Re: feminists hate tomboys?

[(Anonymous)]

+1

Also traits may be gender coded but they're really not innate to gender which is why I don't take the "this female character is like a man!" as a legitimate criticism anymore.

if you think she was a flat action hero who wasn't developed and had no motives other than kicking ass and saying one liners, then just say that.

Re: feminists hate tomboys?

[diet_poison]

...not that I've heard.

I'm not a fan of women who look down their noses at women who are more classically feminine (see secrets page, and also I used to kinda be like that myself :/ ), but disliking women just for being "tomboys"? Never heard that one.

I'm sure it exists tho :|

Re: feminists hate tomboys?

[nyxelestia]

Yes and no.

There is a lot of criticism of the fact girls pursuing masculine traits is perceived as a good thing but boys pursuing feminine traits is a bad thing. This does lead into many feminists insisting tomboys are just buying into the patriarchy to try and uplift themselves in society, or that being a tomboy is 'buying into the patriarchy' so to speak. This, however, is usually less about tomboys themselves, and more about the way society degrades or demonizes feminine traits and puts masculine ones on a pedestal - meaning girls pursing masculine traits are "lifting themselves" while boys pursing feminine traits are "lowering" themselves. I've seen this extend into people encouraging their girls to try and pursue positive feminine traits in place of toxic masculine ones (i.e. feminine cooperation vs masculine competition), which does sometimes 'translate' as 'try to turn them away from being tomboys'.

Overall, though, feminists (at least most of the ones I've either run into, read about, or read the writings of) don't really have anything against tomboys in particular.

That said, I can see a lot of people mistaking criticism of the tomboy phenomenon (that is the "boyish girls good, girly boys bad" thing") as criticism of tomboys in particular.

I know that from my own experience, I confused the hell out of a lot of people as a child because I was such a "tomboy" in personality, yet always looked feminine (so I'd roughhouse and wrestle with the boys wearing some of the girliest dresses you can imagine as a kid). I thought of myself as "one of the the boys but not a tomboy", and apparently I'm an interesting case study on what it even means to be a tomboy in the first place. This confusion about the boundaries and definition of a tomboy can further cause confusion when it comes to dialogue about tomboys, feminism, etc.

Re: feminists hate tomboys?

[(Anonymous)]

If found the exact opposite.
Ok, feminism is not a hive mind, and most of the feminist who hate anything tend to be an insignificantly small, but highly vocal and publicized minority, all that is established... but of the feminists who do hate anything, it tends to be women who act more feminine.